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Thread: Pointing Goldens

  1. #31
    Senior Member Sharon Potter's Avatar
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    Years ago, I was out for a leisurely walk through the woods with my two dogs...my Chessie, Sky, and my Walker hound, Jack. During the course of this walk, my Chessie chased a squirrel up a tree and stood there barking at it....and half an hour later my hound locked up on point on a grouse. All I could do was laugh and shake my head.
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  2. #32
    Senior Member Labs's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Swampcollie View Post
    Because of the breeds that went into creating the Golden Retriever, once in a while you'll get a dog that points. There really isn't any way to predict which dogs will point. (even from the same litter.)
    I guide with a guy that breeds solid goldens...every one that I hunted with pointed. Doesn't look like he is advertises or sells them as pointing golden's, but he has a high proportionate number of golden's that point....he is on Vancouver Island, British Columbia... http://www.goldngunretrievers.com/
    The dog will always prove you wrong

  3. #33
    Senior Member Gun_Dog2002's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sharon Potter View Post
    Most puppies will do that....it's play behavior but based on instinct, which can be developed into pointing rather than flushing. It all depends on what you want, shape and reward. However, it's sight pointing, which is different from scent pointing. You can teach a Chihuahua or a Great Dane or a Coonhound to point.
    At the training seminar I did for Oregon Department of Fish/Game last year, a guy brought a coonhound. Had him retrieving ducks and doing 100 yard marks in water by the end. I was pretty happy about that, especially since it was quite a chore to load the black bear in the winger...

    /Paul
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  4. #34
    Senior Member Gun_Dog2002's Avatar
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    Should be pretty easy to teach a golden to point. Heck someone even taught one to fetch....



    /Paul
    Paul Cantrell
    Black Ice Retrievers
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    Too many dogs to list (By some Bitch)

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  5. #35
    Member DrDuck's Avatar
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    Frankly, I enjoy watching the sequence that leads to a flushed bird more than a point. When you see your dog turn on scent, get birdy, slow down (except for the tail wagging) and put up a bird it is as good as it gets.

  6. #36
    Senior Member Golddogs's Avatar
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    My Riley dog would lock up on occasion and it was fun, until he locked up on a skunk. What was interesting was he only did it if the bird was still, the moment it moved , bang, in he went. I never viewed it as a true point, but he did it with regularity. I often wondered if it was enouraged by the fact he had been on planted birds early in training.
    Never trust a dog to watch your food!

  7. #37
    Senior Member Hunt'EmUp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrDuck View Post
    Frankly, I enjoy watching the sequence that leads to a flushed bird more than a point. When you see your dog turn on scent, get birdy, slow down (except for the tail wagging) and put up a bird it is as good as it gets.
    As do I, I feel there is worthiness is in teaching a flusher, an easy or whoa command, so the dog knows enough not to flush; before I can get prepared, but definitely I don't wish to flush my own birds, that's a dogs job Retrievers don't point they pause, I can appreciate pause but they better have the bold flush as well .

    Interesting I just looked Up the AKC Golden Standard, I only see hunting mentioned once, and flushing style is not described at all.To an outsider this seems a pretty relaxed, standard for a primarily game dog breed. A better description of style might be a benefit to the breed. Labs have hunting mentioned several times, and while it might be ignored at least it's in there.
    Last edited by Hunt'EmUp; 01-28-2014 at 01:59 PM.
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  8. #38
    Member Jere's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sharon Potter View Post
    1. There is a big difference between a real point and a dog being taught to stand game. Any dog of any breed can be taught to stand still on scent, but it's not a truly natural point.

    2. Also, a flash point is a hesitation....the dog gets scent, freezes and hesitates for a second or two, then jumps in to flush/chase.
    1 Absolutely.

    2. I suspect that hesitation is the time period during which the dog assures itself of the location of the prey (by scent, sight and/or hearing) before proceeding. "Proceeding" could result in a true staunch point or a pounce/capture or chase.. Young pointers and setters (breeds with the strongest natural pointing instincts) will "flash point" and follow up with an attempt to capture. Over time they (most) settle down and become more and more "staunch" (holding point longer and longer). A "staunch" pointing dog may be a servicable hunting dog - it allows the shooter to approach and will only break as the shooter moves forward past it ("wanting" to be in on the attempt to capture) - but it is not "finished." A "finished" dog is also "steady." Some (a few?) become naturally "steady," allowing the handler to move forward to flush and kill the bird but most require training to develop steadiness. Steadiness can be of several forms depending on what event, if any, in the flush, shot, fall sequence triggers a break (the dog ceases to stand, chases etc) If the dog breaks when the bird flushes, it is not steady to any level; if not, it is "steady to wing." Steady to shot and steady to fall are similarly defined. The finished dog is steady to wing, shot and fall.

    Leastwise that's the way I understand this stuff. Anyone with a better understanding or alternative description/definitions feel free to chime in.

    Since pointers and setters naturally go through such a development process (flash point, break, chase, ..., cease the chase stuff and become stanch pointers), just as my first two "pointing labs." did, I'm left wondering just how does one know he's seeing a natural point versus a learned behavior when his dog consistently locates birds and "locks up" in a staunch point w/o any effort to train or shape that behavior on its human's part?? And don't tell me by the origin of the "breed" of dog you're watching. We need something deeper than that very shallow non-answer.

    Jere

  9. #39
    Member jluther's Avatar
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    A friend just came back from the French Brittany National in Georgia, where she ran her dogs in the field trials. While she was apprentice judging, one dog pointed (or stood there awestruck) at a feral sow and her piglets. One of the judges commented, "If the pigs fly, I'll count it."
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  10. #40
    Senior Member Sharon Potter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jere View Post

    Since pointers and setters naturally go through such a development process (flash point, break, chase, ..., cease the chase stuff and become stanch pointers), just as my first two "pointing labs." did, I'm left wondering just how does one know he's seeing a natural point versus a learned behavior when his dog consistently locates birds and "locks up" in a staunch point w/o any effort to train or shape that behavior on its human's part?? And don't tell me by the origin of the "breed" of dog you're watching. We need something deeper than that very shallow non-answer.

    Jere
    Learned/taught behavior on point is usually quite obvious. The dog stops, stays put, and looks in the general direction of the bird with interest.

    The natural point has a whole different intensity level. Imagine a dog running hard, spinning sideways in mid-air and landing stiff legged, head and tail high, quivering with excitement yet never moving a muscle. The bird may well be 30 yards away, yet the slightest scent causes the dog to freeze mid-stride.

    The difference is hard to describe, but if you saw two dogs....one that has been taught to stand their game and the other with a ton of natural point, the difference is night and day. Both types require training since the instinct to chase is strong...but the dog with the natural point will stand out via intensity and style.

    It's a lot like watching a retriever with a ton of natural retrieve drive compared to a dog that has no natural retrieve drive but has been taught to retrieve. They will both go out and pick something up, but the difference is obvious.
    Last edited by Sharon Potter; 01-28-2014 at 09:18 PM.
    Sharon Potter

    www.redbranchkennels.net

    Chesapeake Bay Retrievers...too many to list.

    Team Huntsmith

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