The RetrieverTraining.Net Forums The Retriever Academy
Total Retriever Training with Mike Lardy
Hawkeye Media Gunners Up Tritronics Outdoor Media
Page 1 of 8 123 ... LastLast
Results 1 to 10 of 79

Thread: Sit means Sit - Or Does It?

  1. #1
    Senior Member Ted Shih's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    Golden, Colorado
    Posts
    4,960

    Default Sit means Sit - Or Does It?

    You may think sit meas sit, but my guess is that it really doesn?t to your dog.

    I can discuss this subject because in many respects, I am an expert. By expert, I mean that my dogs are known offenders (one having broken in two different trials in the fourth series where we were on the leader board) and that I am, in no small measure, to blame.

    First, some background. My dogs are professionally trained by Cherylon Loveland. She does not run trials, I do. In the off-season, I train every weekend. In season, I train Thursday, then jump in my dog truck.

    Second, it doesn?t matter what you do, the dogs know a field trial (or hunt test). I don?t care what you do, you cannot replicate battle conditions, only approximate. At a FT, there is no collar. There are lots more people, dogs, and truck. The dogs sit around longer. There are more guns at the flyer station. They get a shot duck or pheasant - not a pigeon. So, if you have a high powered dog, he is going to be jacked up. That is a given.

    Third, if you have a young, jacked up dog, your obedience problems can be exacerbated. One partial solution is to wear the dogs out. When my dogs were 3 and I was running in the AA stakes, I would run blinds in the morning before the set up dog ran, run blinds after the setup dog ran, run blinds after the marks, run blinds after the blinds, etc., etc. etc. I found that when I was able to do this (not always possible because of grounds near FT, running numbers, etc.) I found that I MIGHT have a chance of keeping the dogs RELATIVELY mellow. You may think I am exagerating. Let me assure you, I am not.

    When I ran the dogs' legs off on blinds, they would still race out after the birds, but be more considered about it. If I didn?t run the blinds, I was doomed. The dogs were just too pumped to be a FT. If they had to sit in the truck and wait, they would be running all over God?s country in the first series. Things got somewhat better last year at age 4, but they still needed the blinds to blow some of the steam out of them.

    Last Spring, my two 4 year old littermates each had a win and each needed two points to qualify for the National. So, I pushed hard ... I ran too many trials in a row ... and got nothing. What?s worse, the dogs line manners got worse. One moral - be careful not to run too many trials in a row!

    So, Cherylon and I dissected what was going wrong. There were some things that we could not address or did not want to address. Neither Cherylon nor I wanted to take the drive out of the dogs. It is too big a part of what we enjoy about the game. We thought (and this year may tell us so) that age would probably take care of some of the problem.

    Then we started to work on me. And we discovered sit did not mean sit to the dogs when I was running them. They knew that the standard was different for me than for Cherylon.

    Ok, so what do I mean when I say sit means sit.

    It means in training (and of course at a FT) to the dog that:

    You don?t get out of the dog box until I say so.
    You don?t move after you get out of the dog box until I say so.
    When I am walking to the holding blind (and I use a very short lead - a 6" climbing rope with no loop attached to a choke chain, which makes it easy for me to identify surging by the dog - and which can remain on the dog for land marks), you must sit when I stop.

    It means that when I call for the birds, ANY movement calls for correction (either 6" lead or stick).

    It means when you return with the bird, reposition, and sit, ANY movement without my direction calls for correction.

    It means that after you gives me the bird, ANY movement without my direction calls for correction.

    The standard is ANY (and I do mean ANY) movement.

    When a handler can say that he or she truly honors that standard (in training - there are always some allowances that need to be made at a FT), then Sit means Sit.


    My guess is that if you videotape yourself, you will find that sit really does not mean to the dog what you think it means.

  2. #2
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    League City, Texas
    Posts
    561

    Default Sit means Sit

    Ted,
    This is the standard Rex-Judy-Farmer approach to line manners. It is why out-of-state judges are amazed at how well behaved our dogs are online. In a typical 60-80 dog open, you MIGHT have to tell 3 handlers to reheel their dogs.

    I am learning the hard way these lessons because Zipper was a laid back, steady eddie kinda dog. Wizard is not and you have to make him toe the line. If you watch yourself, the you don't have to watch the dog.
    "You can train your dog any way ya want. It ain't my dog. "

  3. #3
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    Newtown, PA
    Posts
    163

    Default

    Ted--thank you--I really appreciate this post and I'm sure others will too--EXCELLENT POST!!

    I'm printing it out and going to go over it with my training group so that whoever is at the line behind me can watch/evaluate MYcorrections and timing, etc. There's certainly EVERY possiblity that I'm NOT making the dog sit....a TRUE sit......that I am allowing him to do some movement in training no matter how slight and that would most certainly carry over into trialing, especially with this type of dog. Soon as this snow melts some so we can get back out and into fulltime training mode I'm going to implement all of what you posted. As it stands now IF I can gain some ground with this regimen of training he may get to run in late summer, early fall. All I can do is try and he's just too nice a dog to quit on him.

    Reo

  4. #4
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    Lakeside, Texas
    Posts
    3,806

    Default

    I've had it both ways... the macho choco dawg was pretty chill and totally accepts that sit means sit. When the macho Crash dawg arrived at the airport at 8 weeks old and i stuck my had through the hole in the crate to pet him for the first time - he bit me and i bled right there on the airport counter... i knew i'd have to take a different approach with this dawg. Steadying started from day one. By 6 months i could walk out 50 yards, toss a mark, then walk back to the line to send him kicking up the dirt. Lee can speak to it better than i can now but he's still a firebreather and doesn't move an inch on the line. Or does he, Lee?

    I think the gist of it is to evaluate what you got early on and deal with it then.

    Shayne

  5. #5
    Banned
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    Pac NW
    Posts
    3,790

    Default

    WONDERFUL WONDERFUL POST TED!!! WOW....awesome....

    I KNEW this stuff but it really sinks in for that habitual creeper I have (Bug) who has been known to leave the line on her own between multiple marks.....eesh

    Shayne, I don't recognize the dog you are speaking about....Crash has a heeling stick with his name embroidered on it. He's much better than he was when I got him (damn dog acted like no one had ever put a lead on him) but we now see "eye to eye" most times. The wound on his nose (from pushing out of the dog trailer) is healing up nicely after having to slam it on his head 20 times in one training session. Pushy freaking Texan Dog......

    Ted, I would like permission to reprint this in the Oregon Retriever Trial Club newsletter that I am typing out (will be out in the mail first week of March) and would be happy to send you a copy of the newsletter.

    WRL

  6. #6
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    Lakeside, Texas
    Posts
    3,806

    Default

    I forgot to give props to Ted... that is an awesome post.

    Lee... all i can say is he was rock solid steady before peeing on Tricia's shoe. I never said he remained calm on exiting the kennel. He bit Mark Edwards one time when putting him back on the truck... i was certain the lesson he received that day would have stuck with him for awhile... guess not, although i never said he was smart. hehe

    Shayne

  7. #7
    Senior Member Polock's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    TEXAS
    Posts
    932

    Default

    Ted

    I tend to believe that the disregard for the 'sit means sit' command is handler/trainer induced.

    In our wonderful world of HT's and FT's, regardless of who's game we're playin', we as humans have a need to get there quickly. Though we go through the OB session of training we are constantly extending the dawg onward at an excellerated pace, either because of rule demands or our ego/dreams. Unfortunately along that road to success, some things suffer, OB may get a little less attention, while we're working on blinds, marks, TT, FF, CC and such, so we can compete.
    We buy high energy dawgs, then we attempt to get them higher through training scenarios that included live flyers, gunfire and the like. Our adrenaline flows, the dawgs sense it ,and things start to slide down hill in our quest. The athelete that we've trained our dawg to be takes over, and in the excitement of the moment, his adrealine flows also.

    We push our dawgs hard to get into the competition of our egos, at an excellerated rate, that we forget ......BABY STEPS, Baby Steps, baby steps............... IMHODAO... if I may quote our friend Joe S.

    Man........I love these dawgs and these games!!!

    Polock......the only time the the world beats a path to your door is when you're in the bathroom

    :drinking:
    See Yunz later,
    Dan Kotarski
    Cut-N-Shoot Retrievers

    BABY STEPS, Baby Steps, baby steps.........Repetition..Consistency..Focus
    TEACH and BUILD! Then BUILD on what ya TEACH!

    "Where The Hell Is Bedias, TX?"

  8. #8
    Senior Member Ted Shih's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    Golden, Colorado
    Posts
    4,960

    Default

    One thing that I think I need to reinforce - as Gman and Shayne both alluded to - your approach depends upon the dogs.

    My two boyz needed lots of blinds and lots of obediance because they are as Steve Martin would say - "Wild and Crazy Guys."

    At the same time when I was running the boyz, I had a 3 year old bitch, with whom I did not run blinds, and did not get on about obediance. She was lower maintenance and was better off left alone at the FT.

    So decide what to do depending on your dog.

  9. #9
    Senior Member ErinsEdge's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2003
    Location
    SE Wisconsin
    Posts
    5,736

    Default

    Excellent post Ted. I had 2 dogs that didn't budge on line. I was spoiled. Then I got 2 dogs that I thought were doing ok but they were lifting their butts and doing tiny little butt scoots. My trainer also noticed it and said don't let them get away with one little scoot. Well, at a trial, that little tiny scoot turns into a hop hop and they are 6 feet in front of you. We now practice even leaving the house to air. Sit means sit.
    Nancy P



    "We give dogs time we can spare, space we can spare and love we can spare. And in return, dogs give us their all. It's the best deal man has ever made." M.Facklam

  10. #10
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    League City, Texas
    Posts
    561

    Default Know your dog

    Exactly right Ted!

    Zipper needed to be relaxed and feeling good, especially on watermarks to do well. Other dogs need to be tightened down for their "minds to be in gear". Got to know your dog and what is needed. Perfect example of it this weekend in the Am at Acadiana. Sunday morning, its raining, 50 degrees and the wind is blowing at 25-30 mph. Judges just lick their chops with condictions like that. The dogs have not had a collar on them since Thursday, many of them running Open and Am, so they have seen a few birds. Great waterblind with a re-entry required after a sizeable distance on land. I think only 2 dogs out of the first 15 picked up the duck! Sunday morning is a great time for a little OB with a collar on a dog that builds.

    I have also found that as a dog advances in training and the setups get more difficult, there is a great tempation to COMPETE instead of train. Handlers get so involved in doing the tests that they forget about line manners, creeping, movement. Keep your standard.
    "You can train your dog any way ya want. It ain't my dog. "

Similar Threads

  1. cc to sit
    By timn in forum RTF - Retriever Training Forum
    Replies: 1
    Last Post: 08-19-2009, 06:38 PM
  2. Sit Means Sit - Another discussion....
    By FOM in forum RTF - Retriever Training Forum
    Replies: 45
    Last Post: 07-21-2009, 11:52 PM
  3. Super newbie question about sit-nick-sit
    By EKavanagh in forum RTF - Retriever Training Forum
    Replies: 17
    Last Post: 05-31-2009, 03:31 PM
  4. Sit-NICK-Sit vs. Sit-BURN-Sit
    By blakegober in forum RTF - Retriever Training Forum
    Replies: 29
    Last Post: 09-26-2008, 07:37 PM
  5. Sit vs. Sit, Stay
    By Ken Bora in forum RTF - Retriever Training Forum
    Replies: 46
    Last Post: 12-24-2007, 11:05 AM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •