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how to lock on to a cold blind??

10K views 44 replies 21 participants last post by  Howard N 
#1 ·
My pup is now ten months old and we have been working on blinds. When i say dead bird and line her to my hand, she keeps her head still but her eyes are wandering. She seems to vere the way her eyes are looking. how do i go about fixing this? More sight blinds? I want her to be totaly locked and commited to the line i set for her.
 
#2 ·
contrary to popular opinion a hand in is not for lining. It is meant to be a cue that the dogs is locked in and looking where you want. Some times Sit is also said as a re-enforcer before the send.
You can a wagon wheel to work your dog on moving with you around the compass and looking exactly where you want. Add in a few specific verbal cues if you're not doing so already.
Dead bird, No here, Good, right there, (hand in) back etc
 
#8 ·
With first cold blinds,and quite a few thereafter, what are you teaching?
are you teaching the dog to handle, or are you more concerned with the dog looking off your finger?

I have learned to not mess with the dog.
kick him off and handle. The lines will come with consistency
jmhdao

gooser
 
#10 ·
This is the way I start them as well. If you sweat the dog trying to get that perfect lock, you will create a bugging problem. Get the dog looking in the general direction, give a verbal cue if desired ("right there", "good", or "sit" are all popular cues here). Hand down and "back".

You will eventually deal with the eyes flicking. The way I do it is to get them looking in the direction I want, then say "good", if dog's eyes flick away, "no" then I usually just pat my knee or snap my fingers lightly behind the dog to get them to refocus. may also use "here" or "heel" and or stepping up or back for more influence. Once the dog is refocused, I usually say "sit" firmly rather than another "good" cue. Then hand down, pause a second, and send on "back". If dog's eyes flick away after the hand goes down, I pull my hand away and refocus the dog. Then another firm "sit", hand down, "back".

There is a lot of finesse involved here but the key IMO is to not put the hand down until the dog is locked (with a dog that has progressed beyond elementary cold blinds), and pulling the hand away if the dog moves his eyes off your target.
 
#9 ·
Is the dog buggin or just not clear that dead bird means "look straight ahead". I have had the same issue with my young dog and the last couple of times I went to field and put out six birds in a field, with quite a distance between them. Line the dog up and send it. It will be going to a blind, because you've got a ton of em out there. The dog will pick up speed as they progress. Give lot's of praise! The blinds I run are short, only thirty to fifty yards.

Then I like to go to a big, big field and do the same thing, but with only three. Running longer distances really gets them going, and their casts become more literal.

If you can plant some banty roosters or pidgeons at the end, that will help too.

But, in general your dog just needs reps. These are a few ways to get them.
 
#14 ·
Is the dog buggin or just not clear that dead bird means "look straight ahead". I have had the same issue with my young dog and the last couple of times I went to field and put out six birds in a field, with quite a distance between them. Line the dog up and send it. It will be going to a blind, because you've got a ton of em out there. The dog will pick up speed as they progress. Give lot's of praise! The blinds I run are short, only thirty to fifty yards.

Then I like to go to a big, big field and do the same thing, but with only three. Running longer distances really gets them going, and their casts become more literal.

If you can plant some banty roosters or pidgeons at the end, that will help too.

But, in general your dog just needs reps. These are a few ways to get them.

Tim, I'm glad to see you post this. I was just thinking about where you were with Archie when I met you down at Joseph's place and wondering what you were doing these days dog-wise.

It makes me happy to see you've got a pup and are going through the cycle again.

Good luck!

Chris
 
#11 ·
Thanks to all for the great advice, we are through ob, ff, singles, single t, and working on doubles. I realize she is still young and wont be anywhere near perfect at this age. I guess she just does not realize that dead bird means look straight. And i guess i was trying to give her a perfect line with my hand.
 
#12 ·
What program are you following that has you running cold blinds before finishing basics?
 
#13 ·
Only "program" I know of that even comes close is Hillman. He does walk-out blinds with very young dogs, but obviously that is NOT a cold blind... Those are merely taught blinds though.
 
#19 ·
Let's back up a step.

I'm working pattern blinds with diversions (Lardy program). Once the bird is down I cannot keep him focused on the blind. I have been sending him and then handling him off, but it doesn't seem to be registering that he needs to go straight to the blind without the detour toward the bird. I understand that you initially don't need to fuss with the dog about the line, but when do you start insisting on a good initial line to the blind?

Without the diversion marks he is fine, but then that's the purpose of the diversion birds, right?
 
#20 ·
I think you've got it right. The purpose of the early transition blind drills and PBs with diversions is to get the dog casting, not to get perfect initial lines or lining past old falls and gunners. After some experience with cold blinds, and I have good momentum on some meaty cold blinds, I will gradually require a better and better initial line. Then, I will likely call back for a very poor initial line. I don't think you can put a timetable on it, but the more momentum a dog has on blinds, the more picky you can get. Expose the dog to no-no drills so that the dog understands the call back - try again routine before doing to much of this on cold blinds.
 
#22 · (Edited)
I have been given a LOT of help.

The help has been with many of the things and steps I THOUGHT I had a good handel on..
FF was one.. I really havent had a clue in the past. It made me realise,, I have prolly never had a truley FF'd dog.

Now Pile work.

I thought I understood what this step encompassed. I didnt. many of the Video's, and Articles, dont explain some of the subtlties that needs to be addressed when teaching this step. Some of mine has been attitude, flaring both on the send ANND of the return. A square straight Front finish.
Force at different points along the way. Praise at the correct point in time. running past the pile. Shopping the pile. But,,, the most important things the articles and DVD didnt show,, are the ways to correct some ofthese issues. They might show a generalised way with the star dog of the DVD,, but that may well be out the window with a different dog.

Allthis should be fixed before a dog even starts to run blinds with pattern blinds, PB ithe diversion,, and cold blinds.

I have made the mistake in the past to not be thourough with Yard work before moving on to other steps..

One ofthe members ofthe training group reminded me.."Its not a sprint,,its a marathon" Be determined,, and finish.

Gooser
 
#24 ·
Jack

So true.

Some pros dont run PB with diversions just becaue of this experience. They run the blind with that REAL diversion in the field..,,, BUT,,, the step they try and drive home is,, with early blinds,, your main focus is teaching the dog to handel... Then when confronted with that diversion later,,, the handeling part is well engrained.

Forget the hand and the fussing with the dog at the line right now.... Teach the dog to handel.
 
#25 · (Edited)
I have been sending him and then handling him off, but it doesn't seem to be registering that he needs to go straight to the blind without the detour toward the bird. I understand that you initially don't need to fuss with the dog about the line, but when do you start insisting on a good initial line to the blind?
You are basically doing fine. After a lot of times handling if you can't get a good initial line try moving up some for the blind. He should have a good idea of where it's at so try a few steps in that direction see if he doesn't focus a little better. I've moved up all the way to even with the gun station to get them to look down at the pile. Next time you do one remember you had trouble with the last one so set the diversion further away from the line to the blind. You need to be able to handle off an old fall so you aren't going exactly going backwards if you need to handle off of it sometimes. But you also need the dog to understand that he is on a blind and not going back to an old fall.

I teach poison birds at the same time. I'll run the pile, more than once if he is having trouble with it, shoot off a mark, pick up the mark, run the pile, shoot off the same mark, run the pile, pick up the mark. I do a dozen or so of these with the mark in various positions in relation to the pile. When the dog is smooth on these I'll start KRD's. I do KRD's the dog's whole competitive life.
 
#28 ·
Bon and truth seekers

i agree ,,,EVENTUALLY ,
but the OP was talking of a 10 month old puppy!
Just get the dog going,, sitting,,and taking reasonable casts.

challenge later

jmhdao
 
#30 · (Edited)
I keep coming back to this topic wondering when the issue will begin to deal with why a pup will not "lock". It always seems that the answers revolve around "you missed a step" and "this or drill that" will clear things up.

It has been suggested (more than once) that those with experience seem to have fewer problems with the obvious reason being they know how to "get there".

In general, if a dog/pup is not performing well, he is out of balance. Now it could be an age factor, but let's assume it isn't. In order to "lock" on a line the pup must be focused and intense with skills in place. When teaching anything new, levels of intensity and focus make a huge difference. Therefore, it isn't always just the wrong drill or sequence that is the real problem.

There are many things that can be done in yardwork that will enhance focus. A more responsive pup will tend to pay more attention to what is going on. The intensity and focus will increase and impact the pup's ability to "lock".

For example, by using exciting marks it would be to the trainer's advantage to let the pup "look at them longer" before releasing. The "hand cue" becomes an integral part of focusing.....it should be an excitement builder. The "line" is clear if the "reps" are similar.

If the pup is given a chance to become more intense and focused when marking it will carryover to his demeanor when running blinds. Momentum is critical. Support for this approach is the fact that often suggestions are made to alternate running a mark and then a blind.

It is not only about creating a "lock", it is more about changing attitudes and expectations. Increasing focus, anticipation and developing expectations do not come from just going through the motions of running a drill. Excellence is a fostered state of mind.....it happens when focus and intensity become significant factors in every training session.

It is not always the program, but the manner in which the trainer goes about teaching. What can you change in your training sessions to positively impact the pup's focus?
 
#31 ·
This is a real question..

Is it really a matter of locking onto "SOMTHING" on the horizon,,, or is it more a matter of agood handler setting his dog properly at the line, and training or conditioning the dog to go as sent?

I will line the dog with good physical placement at the line (Dogs spine in line with bird) and send the dog.
The dogs runs straight as sent due to many reps that have included handeling to keep him on line. He eventually runs dead straight, cause he doesnt really like to be handeled.

Is it MORE a matter of conditioning and reps?


Gooser
 
#34 · (Edited)
This is a real question..

Is it really a matter of locking onto "SOMTHING" on the horizon,,, or is it more a matter of agood handler setting his dog properly at the line, and training or conditioning the dog to go as sent?
Gooser
All the above.
"Setting a dog at the line" starts with having a dog that will really heel not just sit at you side. That gets the spine and feet right. Conditioning then get the head and eyes in line with the body. Conditioning the young dog that once it sits correctly if they look straight ahead their eyes can focus on the object where they are headed and then they will be sent. As this habit is ingrained in their mind the head and eyes will heel with the rest of body.

Training, as time goes by more and more blinds are done blinds become a taught "picture"(between 2 trees, down the shore,....) that can be recalled and "locking on that line is evident.

JMO

Tim
 
#32 ·
Obviously too early for a dog just starting blinds but you must get your dog to focus and take the initial line you ask for.

Here's a crude sketch of a simple test to see if your dog can go as sent from the mat.
Take a typical purposely built mound a few feet high with 2' to 3' cover on it.
Now, stomp the cover flat on either side of your true line to blind making two paths highly visible from the mat and attractive to the dog.
Now get your dog and run a blind lining him through the high cover. Cheating and following the stomped down paths avoiding the line through the high cover gets the dog a recall etc............

View attachment 9102
 
#33 ·
It is not always the program, but the manner in which the trainer goes about teaching.
No truer words have ever been spoken about retriever training.

I use a modified Lardy program for basics. Who do you think would turn out a more fundamentally sound post basics dog?

I'll give you a hint. His first name doesn't begin with an H.
 
#35 ·
This thread kinda wandered around this topic. Locking on the "destination" that you want requires two basic things.

First, a dog that wants to go and is confident there is a bird out there. So he is looking out there somewhere to go!
Second, a handler who can communicate when the dog is looking at where you want him to--the "destination".

You need both basics. The first takes time and proper training to cultivate this attitude and momentum for all circumstances. A 10 month old will not be bale to deal with all looks well.

The second requires all the mechanics of lining up straight, team work, cadence, cues, and ability to change their look. Again a 10 month old cannot be expected to have all these except in simple drills.

At the line, often less is more but in the case of quality lessons more is more but takes time. Separate handling skills from focus skills at first.
 
#36 · (Edited)
One of the biggest and most common mistakes new trainers make is trying for the line before teaching blind running momentum & attitude. This is the usual cause of bugging that can arise after the basics.
It's a faith thing that a handler needs to have, in the advice given in this thread. Have them looking in the general area instead of straight down the line. Kick'em loose and let em run for at least 1/3rd of the blind before stopping them, to build confidence in running cold blinds. Also run short cold blinds that the dog has a chance of getting too (even if they're off line), before being whistled down.
I usually line up to something 10yds out, that is in line with the blind. I think the dogs who are running cold blinds with confidence, develop that picture taking ability through time and continually improve.
Don't try to make a 10 mth old pup do what you see a 3 yr old dog do.
 
#37 ·
I know this thread is long, and i am not sure that i will get many answers, but how do i create this blind running momentum? i mean my dog is very laid back so shes not a fire breather even on marks, but on blinds she goes probably 3/4 the speed she does on marks. Im thinking real birds should get her fired up.
 
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