How Factors Effect Dogs

[Jennifer Henion]

Who is your audience? Judges picking factors to use in a test or handlers wanting to learn how factors AFFECT dogs? or both?

Is your question: what is the most significant factor to talk about? or what would one say about any of them? Your original post is a little vague which may be the reason you're not getting what you want.

[Purpledawg]

outstanding post Lynn H, Thank you!!

[captainjack]

OK, I stand corrected. You received one really good response. I’m going to do something here that I probably should not do. I’m going to expand on Dennis’s statement. I’m sure Dennis was brief because he knows that it was either stay brief or write a book.
Of all the factors pup must learn to deal with, wind is the most difficult. You can show pup how to deal with terrain by walking out there and showing him where to go. The same is true with obstacles and it is even easier with water, however you cannot show pup how to fight the wind because people are dead nosed and don’t understand what a super highway the wind is to a dog. Also, the wind has no edges you can teach the dog to avoid. It has no substance the dog can see but its effects are real and powerful.
Part of the solution starts with the first marks you throw for pup. Those marks should be designed to encourage pup to use his eyes rather than his nose and that practice should be followed for at least the first year of his life. We rarely throw marks into cover but we frequently throw marks past cover so pup will see the bird before he smells it. When we run sight blinds we use cross winds to get the pup used to running to a target to build the habit of running straight. We do the same thing into the wind to break the tendency to quarter.
I could go on about this forever because teaching pup to fight the wind is something you will have to train for his entire life and it is a lot like golf. You can only play the game. You cannot win the game.

Very good post.

[cpmm665]

OK, I stand corrected. You received one really good response. I’m going to do something here that I probably should not do. I’m going to expand on Dennis’s statement. I’m sure Dennis was brief because he knows that it was either stay brief or write a book.
Of all the factors pup must learn to deal with, wind is the most difficult. You can show pup how to deal with terrain by walking out there and showing him where to go. The same is true with obstacles and it is even easier with water, however you cannot show pup how to fight the wind because people are dead nosed and don’t understand what a super highway the wind is to a dog. Also, the wind has no edges you can teach the dog to avoid. It has no substance the dog can see but its effects are real and powerful.
Part of the solution starts with the first marks you throw for pup. Those marks should be designed to encourage pup to use his eyes rather than his nose and that practice should be followed for at least the first year of his life. We rarely throw marks into cover but we frequently throw marks past cover so pup will see the bird before he smells it. When we run sight blinds we use cross winds to get the pup used to running to a target to build the habit of running straight. We do the same thing into the wind to break the tendency to quarter.
I could go on about this forever because teaching pup to fight the wind is something you will have to train for his entire life and it is a lot like golf. You can only play the game. You cannot win the game.

Thank you for that how "WIND" is a factor explanation. Excellent!

[John Montenieri]

Alright, I'll contribute as well. I'd like to expand on cover and angles, specifically changes in cover and how sharp angles forces dogs off line. Lets consider a mark, thrown such that the gunner is aligned with the bottom of the hill and the mark is thrown up the hill such the dog must carry the side hill for more than a short distance. For the sake of argument let's just say ~150 yds on a side hill. Let's also consider that enroute to this mark, there is a change in cover that is a strip of taller, thicker grasses that is at an angle, 45 degrees or less (a very skinny angle), on the line to the mark. The straight line to the mark would be along the side hill, through the strip at a skinny angle. Let's ignore other considerations such as wind, lighting etc......

Do you think the dog would:

1- carry the line to the mark
2- flare the cover and fall off the hill
3- climb the hill and square the cover


Under this scenario you've got a couple of "Factors" the dogs must deal with.

1- running a side hill at a distance is not something most dogs do willingly. I don't blame them, running a side hill is not the most efficient way to get from point A to point B. Most would climb or fall off.
2-Angled cover. I'll use an analogy Ted Shih brought up in an earlier thread I think illustrates this effectively. Consider a spear thrown at a shield at a 90 degree angle. Chances are the spear will have a good chance to penetrate the surface. Now consider a spear thrown at a shield which is held at a 45 degree angle. Chances are good the spear will deflect away from the shield. Consider the dog the spear and the cover the shield. The more severe the angle the likely hood a dog will "flare" away from the cover. Evan brought this definition up earlier in this thread.


Ted Shih had some earlier threads about setting up Derby marks and all age marks. Mind you it isn't the only way to do things, just the way he approaches training to which I concur. Some of these concepts were discussed in greater detail and you might find them helpful.

http://www.retrievertraining.net/for...ad.php?t=80394

http://www.retrievertraining.net/for...ad.php?t=80693

[captainjack]

Ok, in reading Lynn's post (and considering Dennis' reference to the nose) it would appear to me that wind may be more of a factor because of scent pulling the dog rather than because the wind is pushing the dog. And since we are talking about MH tests and distances rather than AA tests and distances, the push if the wind will obviously have less impact on the Dog's performance with the relatively short marks. So what important idea/tip/strategy can you emphasize for the handler with a roughly 2 - 3 year old dog with a good foundation in basics and getting ready to run AKC Master tests to help him/her deal with this factor of the wind?

[cpmm665]

Alright, I'll contribute as well. I'd like to expand on cover and angles, specifically changes in cover and how sharp angles forces dogs off line. Lets consider a mark, thrown such that the gunner is aligned with the bottom of the hill and the mark is thrown up the hill such the dog must carry the side hill for more than a short distance. For the sake of argument let's just say ~150 yds on a side hill. Let's also consider that enroute to this mark, there is a change in cover that is a strip of taller, thicker grasses that is at an angle, 45 degrees or less (a very skinny angle), on the line to the mark. The straight line to the mark would be along the side hill, through the strip at a skinny angle. Let's ignore other considerations such as wind, lighting etc......

Do you think the dog would:

1- carry the line to the mark
2- flare the cover and fall off the hill
3- climb the hill and square the cover


Under this scenario you've got a couple of "Factors" the dogs must deal with.

1- running a side hill at a distance is not something most dogs do willingly. I don't blame them, running a side hill is not the most efficient way to get from point A to point B. Most would climb or fall off.
2-Angled cover. I'll use an analogy Ted Shih brought up in an earlier thread I think illustrates this effectively. Consider a spear thrown at a shield at a 90 degree angle. Chances are the spear will have a good chance to penetrate the surface. Now consider a spear thrown at a shield which is held at a 45 degree angle. Chances are good the spear will deflect away from the shield. Consider the dog the spear and the cover the shield. The more severe the angle the likely hood a dog will "flare" away from the cover. Evan brought this definition up earlier in this thread.


Ted Shih had some earlier threads about setting up Derby marks and all age marks. Mind you it isn't the only way to do things, just the way he approaches training to which I concur. Some of these concepts were discussed in greater detail and you might find them helpful.

http://www.retrievertraining.net/for...ad.php?t=80394

http://www.retrievertraining.net/for...ad.php?t=80693

Thank you O Warrior 300. I did "search" for similar threads, guess I'm too blatantly obvious. Your links do not work.404 Not Found.

[cpmm665]

Ok, in reading Lynn's post (and considering Dennis' reference to the nose) it would appear to me that wind may be more of a factor because of scent pulling the dog rather than because the wind is pushing the dog. And since we are talking about MH tests and distances rather than AA tests and distances, the push if the wind will obviously have less impact on the Dog's performance with the relatively short marks. So what important idea/tip/strategy can you emphasize for the handler with a roughly 2 - 3 year old dog with a good foundation in basics and getting ready to run AKC Master tests to help him/her deal with this factor of the wind?

We've heard from the "WIND" gallery, how about cover?

[MooseGooser]

Ok Gooser time
all this fancy talk a girls night out, killin threads, wind,terrain,lighting, all don't make a dip a difference UNLESS

ya first makes sure

dog can see guns ,,,dog can see birds ,,,dog can see the fall..
I think if more people would pay attention to those things first,,,, then we kin start discussin what AEFfects the dogs performance

[MooseGooser]

And a course all the above in my response is only relevant if we is talkin marking.

the lady never diferfrachaeated wether blinds er marks

gooser