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Thread: How Factors Effect Dogs

  1. #31
    Senior Member MooseGooser's Avatar
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    P.s.

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    but , have been known to play dress up a time or two
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  2. #32
    Senior Member Gun_Dog2002's Avatar
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    I vote for wind. It's the only non tangible factor.

    /paul
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  3. #33
    Senior Member cpmm665's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MooseGooser View Post
    Ok Gooser time
    all this fancy talk a girls night out, killin threads, wind,terrain,lighting, all don't make a dip a difference UNLESS

    ya first makes sure

    dog can see guns ,,,dog can see birds ,,,dog can see the fall..
    I think if more people would pay attention to those things first,,,, then we kin start discussin what AEFfects the dogs performance
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  4. #34
    Senior Member HPL's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cpmm665 View Post
    I get confused with the A and the E sometimes. A factor that has an EFFECT on a dog's performance might be; terrain, cover, wind. Effect is a noun.
    Correct usage there, but both Affect and Effect can be a noun or a verb depending on usage, so I end up looking them both up all the time to be sure that I am using the correct one. Effect is the one that is most commonly a noun, and Affect most often a verb.

    Interesting thread, by the way. Didn't really understand the little bit of snarkiness in the beginning. I don't play the games, just hunt my knucklehead and have mostly taught him to get to area of fall and then work the wind. Terrain not much of a factor here as we are FLATTT and unlike those that play the games, I don't really mind the bank running as I mostly hunt dove and would rather take home a dog that hasn't just been swimming in a stinky stock tank.
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  5. #35
    Senior Member RetrieversONLINE's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cpmm665 View Post
    Can we please move past "way to kill a thread" thank you Dennis and Evan and hear from some Amateurs? It's Ladies Night.


    What does this mean? Answering two of your questions and as an Amateur and you label it “killing the thread”?


    You asked 3 questions.
    1. What advice would you offer the group as to how factors effect dogs?
    2. If you were asked to speak on only one factor(terrain, cover, wind, lighting) and,
    3. emphasize the most important thing to be aware of as a Handler, what would it be?

    I answered 2 and 3. The answer to 1. Is rather obvious in that factors affect dogs by making it difficult for dogs to reach their destination. I assume you know how factors do that or you wouldn’t have been asked for the presentation.

    Perhaps you should give us your key points and request feedback. No point in regurgitating the market material as you say. But not sure what you understand from that market? Assume you know that dogs fade with the wind which I believe is paramount to consider for every retrieve. I think, perhaps contrary to Captainjack, that fading is more important than being attracted to scent. When dogs can’t smell anything on their route, they naturally drift downwind. We called this the wind is pushing them but they are allowing themselves to keep checking where they don’t smell anything. This is more common than being attracted to en route drag back although the later can be critical.

    The key to understanding any factor and especially wind is that distance enhances them. In other words, the factor operates to influence the dog for a longer time. That’s why field trialers spend their dogs life working on factors and hunt testers pay far less attention. A long cross hill mark will eventually act to cause dogs to climb or fall but this is often irrelevant on a short retrieve. Water acts as a factor to deviate dogs when they try to run around it either to get there faster or because they have an aversion to it. While in the water, the “easy” shoreline is an attraction. Distance is important for both. Water as a factor is easier to train for than is wind. As I said “dogs live by their noses”. The vast majority of birds are found by their nose even though the eyes get them there. Failure to get there because of factors and then failure to smell a bird is the cause for almost all retrieve failures.

    A discussion of simple single factors is rather basic. What is challenging is understanding how factors complement each other. Are they in concert of cancelling? Two or three factors all influencing the dog in the same direction are extremely powerful (wind onto shore) whereas factors that cancel each other (wind off shore) are lesser.

    Diversions as used in the Rule Book are man introduced things like birds thrown and retrieved or not. I do not mind including them as factors because they do deviate a dog from their line. Historically, factors were more considered natural influences such as wind, water, terrain, and cover.

    Incidentally, I do not think “factors’ are a buzz word. They have been part of the literature since the 1970’s and before(eg. Rex Carr) and the Rule book specially describes them and their role in designing tests.
    Dennis

  6. #36
    Senior Member John Montenieri's Avatar
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    Sorry the links didn't work. I searched and found these again, also copied and pasted into a new browser window and they came up so hopefully they work.

    http://www.retrievertraining.net/for...light=ted+shih

    http://www.retrievertraining.net/for...light=ted+shih

    Both were great exercises in setting up marks and why features/space and other marks would push/pull dogs. Hopefully with the responses you've gotten you have enough material to talk about.
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  7. #37
    Senior Member Ken Bora's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RetrieversONLINE View Post


    What does this mean? Answering two of your questions and as an Amateur and you label it “killing the thread”?


    .
    bet she was playing the debate drinking game and may have been purty liquered up by time of post.
    Like Evan was as well, lighting not lightENing
    very nice points Dennis.
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  8. #38
    Senior Member MooseGooser's Avatar
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    For the OP that is prepping a lecture on factors that AEFfect dogs at the master HT level.

    i think discussion has to include the rules of the venue..

    How many times have you seen dogs that avoid factors, but they very much know where the bird is when MARKING..
    Is the line to that mark judged? by rule.

    I suppose there will be some that will use the disturbing to much cover argument, but,, if the dog takes his own way to the mark,, deliberatly, with no hunt along the way to the AOF,, and once there,, establishes his hunt and picks up the bird,, why is there a debate on factors?? wont that dog pass?

    Many hunt test venues dont judge the return. Very few HT participants worry about it when training. But yet, many Pros willtellyou, that its important to train the return becuse they believe a dog that cheats the return or is AEFected by Factors will do the same on the way out..

    If we are talking MARKING and only the HT venues, and considering for the most part, the guns are hidden,how can we even consider how the "Factors" AEffect the dog, if we really arent SURE the dog saw the mark in the first place? We pretty much just Assume the dog SHOULD have seen it..
    Judges Judge that dogs performance to the standard by watching the dog make the AOF with determination knowing clearly where the bird is. Do we judge the line??? Can a dog that cheats,, or avoids, or is influenced by Factors be a reliable marker, and PASS a HT? I think so!

    I believe some times when a HT dog looses itsway on a mark,,and I hear folks say the dog caved to some diversion or factor, and that caused him to get lost,, I always ask myself,,how do they know FOR SURE the dog saw the mark? The Gun is hidden,, the timming between throws many be a bit fast, a miriad of reasons ,but what the problem is, we dont taken enough care many times to make sure the dog SEES! Many times I believe there are deliberate moves in HT to make it difficult for the dog NOT to SEE .
    How can you have a discussion of factors AEFFecting a dog in that senario?

    I believe much of the talk at the OP seminar, should include a serious discussion talking about making sure dog get every chance to SEE marks thrown..
    And a discussion about NOT setting up tests that trick, or make it difficult for a dog to see...

    Blinds are different. You are required to challenge the line that takes the most direct path to the bird. (Some Venues)
    In that senario,, the Factors play a HUGE role... they are utilised,, and judges judge how the dog makes its way through them.
    You dont have to consider a hidden gun, and wether the dog saw anything!

    JMHO.

    Gooser
    It is far easier to spit on the work of others than it is to produce something better yourself.
    Brynmoors Prairie Sage JH ​(Sage) Just a dang fool huntin Dawg
    HRCH Calypso Seven Bales High SH (Bailey)
    HR Calypso Zoomin Loosies Mad Hader (Maddi) We loved you baby. R.I.P.
    FlatLanders Broken Pistol Ricochet SH (Flinch)


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    I have gone by "Gooser" since I was a "gossling"

  9. #39
    Senior Member T-Pines's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Bora View Post
    bet she was playing the debate drinking game and may have been purty liquered up by time of post.
    Like Evan was as well, lighting not lightENing
    very nice points Dennis.
    Since you brought it up ... I think Evan misread it as lightning, not lighting nor lightENing. Although, I do have a dog that isn't wild about thunder, but I have been working on it and I think the effect is lightening.

    Jim

  10. #40
    Senior Member Lynn Hanigan's Avatar
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    Wow! Gooser. That sounds like the beginning of sagacity. My compliments to the people you have been training with.
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