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How Factors Effect Dogs

14K views 70 replies 26 participants last post by  john fallon 
#1 ·
I'm working on a 30-40 minute presentation to offer at a Club meeting. The topic will be "How Factors Effect Dogs (terrain, cover, wind, lighting). Rather than simply regurgitate material already on the market, I've decided to draw on the wisdom and experiences of this forum for ideas. I'm undecided if I'll do this via power point or lecture and white board. For formalities sake, let's assume my audience has all followed a dedicated training program and has dogs ready to do AKC Master level work. What advice would you offer the group as to how factors effect dogs? If you were asked to speak on only one factor(terrain, cover, wind, lighting) and emphasize the most important thing to be aware of as a Handler, what would it be?
 
#2 ·
I'm working on a 30-40 minute presentation to offer at a Club meeting. The topic will be "How Factors Effect Dogs (terrain, cover, wind, lighting). Rather than simply regurgitate material already on the market, I've decided to draw on the wisdom and experiences of this forum for ideas. I'm undecided if I'll do this via power point or lecture and white board. For formalities sake, let's assume my audience has all followed a dedicated training program and has dogs ready to do AKC Master level work. What advice would you offer the group as to how factors effect dogs? If you were asked to speak on only one factor(terrain, cover, wind, lighting) and emphasize the most important thing to be aware of as a Handler, what would it be?
WIND!!!

Dogs live by their noses more than we know!!
 
#3 · (Edited)
Cindy,

"Factor" has become something of a buzz word in the retriever world, and often there are incomplete or even incorrect assumptions made about the well known 'factors'. What they are is diversion factors, and each operates on one or more of the following; Flare, Suction, Drift. Those influences divert dogs or they would not be factors.

You mentioned terrain (very non-specific), cover (somewhat less vague), wind (i.e. crossing?), lighting (Not likely to be a factor in testing, or in hunting with a responsible hunter). You wouldn't normally be worrying about completing retrieves during lightening, but rather getting you and your dog to safety. All that taken at face value, let me give you some examples of how factors work in diverting routes.

Flare: An obstacle, like a fallen tree or hay bale, is directly in the path to a blind retrieve. If the dog does not choose to jump over it, but instead run around it, he has been diverted (flaring it). Only one example.
Suction: A recent fallen bird is near or on the route to a blind, and draws the dog offline toward it instead of remaining on the line given by the handler. (suction to the old fall) Again, just one example.
Drift: A crossing wind (say - right to left) blowing across the route to a fall. The dog follows the direction of the wind rather than holding the line; drifting with it.

If some physical element in a set up, especially in or near a route, it is only a factor if it tends to divert dogs by its presence.

Evan
 
#4 ·
So I'm thinking perhaps I can now narrow the subject matter down even more to: How factors work in diverting routes. Thanks Evan.
 
#5 ·
Can we please move past "way to kill a thread" thank you Dennis and Evan and hear from some Amateurs? It's Ladies Night.
 
#8 ·
I'd like to assume your sarcastic response was intended to be humorous (you failed). Both Dennis and Evan gave astute answers to your question and it would serve you well in incorporate their answers in your presentation.

"Humility is not thinking less of yourself, it's thinking of yourself less."
 
#35 ·


What does this mean? Answering two of your questions and as an Amateur and you label it “killing the thread”?


You asked 3 questions.
1. What advice would you offer the group as to how factors effect dogs?
2. If you were asked to speak on only one factor(terrain, cover, wind, lighting) and,
3. emphasize the most important thing to be aware of as a Handler, what would it be?

I answered 2 and 3. The answer to 1. Is rather obvious in that factors affect dogs by making it difficult for dogs to reach their destination. I assume you know how factors do that or you wouldn’t have been asked for the presentation.

Perhaps you should give us your key points and request feedback. No point in regurgitating the market material as you say. But not sure what you understand from that market? Assume you know that dogs fade with the wind which I believe is paramount to consider for every retrieve. I think, perhaps contrary to Captainjack, that fading is more important than being attracted to scent. When dogs can’t smell anything on their route, they naturally drift downwind. We called this the wind is pushing them but they are allowing themselves to keep checking where they don’t smell anything. This is more common than being attracted to en route drag back although the later can be critical.

The key to understanding any factor and especially wind is that distance enhances them. In other words, the factor operates to influence the dog for a longer time. That’s why field trialers spend their dogs life working on factors and hunt testers pay far less attention. A long cross hill mark will eventually act to cause dogs to climb or fall but this is often irrelevant on a short retrieve. Water acts as a factor to deviate dogs when they try to run around it either to get there faster or because they have an aversion to it. While in the water, the “easy” shoreline is an attraction. Distance is important for both. Water as a factor is easier to train for than is wind. As I said “dogs live by their noses”. The vast majority of birds are found by their nose even though the eyes get them there. Failure to get there because of factors and then failure to smell a bird is the cause for almost all retrieve failures.

A discussion of simple single factors is rather basic. What is challenging is understanding how factors complement each other. Are they in concert of cancelling? Two or three factors all influencing the dog in the same direction are extremely powerful (wind onto shore) whereas factors that cancel each other (wind off shore) are lesser.

Diversions as used in the Rule Book are man introduced things like birds thrown and retrieved or not. I do not mind including them as factors because they do deviate a dog from their line. Historically, factors were more considered natural influences such as wind, water, terrain, and cover.

Incidentally, I do not think “factors’ are a buzz word. They have been part of the literature since the 1970’s and before(eg. Rex Carr) and the Rule book specially describes them and their role in designing tests.
 
#39 ·
bet she was playing the debate drinking game and may have been purty liquered up by time of post.
Like Evan was as well, lighting not lightENing ;-)
very nice points Dennis.
Since you brought it up ... I think Evan misread it as lightning, not lighting nor lightENing. Although, I do have a dog that isn't wild about thunder, but I have been working on it and I think the effect is lightening.

Jim
 
#41 ·
Since you brought it up ... I think Evan misread it as lightning, not lighting nor lightENing. Although, I do have a dog that isn't wild about thunder, but I have been working on it and I think the effect is lightening.

Jim
Very nice. I really like this one.
 
#9 ·
So, without being sacrcastic...

Could Lynn and John please help me understand how I, as a handler, can use what Evan wrote in response to this question...

"If you were asked to speak on only one factor(terrain, cover, wind, lighting) and emphasize the most important thing to be aware of as a Handler, what would it be? "

What was the one factor?

What was the most important thing for me to be aware of as a handler that was emphasized?
 
#10 ·
Lynn, I'm going to guess that you was kidding.... because Cindy was... you know about them being thread killers. They gave such great answers that no else has anything to add, but wait... my dog is at senior level and the greatest factor of them all is water cheating. He understands the concept of down the shore, past the pt, channels, cheating entrys and re-entrys and all but he has to be reminded every once and awhile to remain sharp. It's like he's seeing what he can get away with after not doing that factor in a while. Anyway that's my take, that water cheating is a tougher factor than all the others put together, good luck on your presentation.

Jeff Warren
 
#11 ·
I have faith that someone will respond with something as factual as "dogs don't like to run into the wind", or "dog's will dig up a Hill". I'm Humble like that.
 
#12 ·
Ok, I will give it a shot. Then folks can have a little fun at my expense...

IMO, wind is the factor influencing dog's performance most so, if I could only talk on one factor, I choose wind.

What I think is the most important thing to emphasize...

In training, handle the dog as soon as you read the dog is giving in to the factor.

Dogs tend to fade with a crosswind and quarter into a head wind. So...

When you cast a dog with the wind, you will likely get more cast than you give. Give voice with this cast to minimize the overcast.

When you cast a dog into the wind, you will likely get less cast than you give. Do not give voice with this cast to maximize the amount of cast you get.

In a trial or test, read the amount of cast the dog gives you and if you don't get enough, imediately make the next cast bigger. This is no time for litteral casting.

OK, fire away...
 
#13 ·
If I was going to your seminar, I would like to see some handout on different setups and to go through them and explain as a handler at a test or trial, how would I read each setup as it pertains to the wind, suction to blinds, where would be the best Way to exit the holding blind and approach the line,is it some times best not to go for the last fall first ect... I don't know about everyone else, but for me most of my job take place before I even get to the line and I still have along way to go until I get it right in the vary short time I have to take everything in.
 
#15 ·
Agreed. But the topic is how factors effect dogs, what you are describing is Handling techniques. I agree, your job is to understand the factors.
 
#14 ·
Not someone who can speak as an advice giver, but as an advice taker and someone who would love to be in the audience, I would be wondering: what is the factor most used by the judges to create a challenging test or trial. Is it indeed wind? While wind is undoubtedly a major "factor" I'll bet the judges use the qualities of the grounds (hillside, dips, cover, ditches, water) to make or break . As an audience member, I would want the lecturer to give useful information about how the judges pick out the factors available at the test grounds and how they use them to challenge the dogs/handlers - then of course, discuss how to train for those factors.

Hope I'm not just stating the obvious...

Woman responder regards -

edit: yeah, what truthseeker said!
 
#16 ·
My presentation won't be about Handling, that's another day. Let's stay on topic, Terrain, cover, wind, lighting and how they effect dogs. How to Handle those factors is a Pro's seminar.
 
#19 · (Edited)
OK, I stand corrected. You received one really good response. I’m going to do something here that I probably should not do. I’m going to expand on Dennis’s statement. I’m sure Dennis was brief because he knows that it was either stay brief or write a book.
Of all the factors pup must learn to deal with, wind is the most difficult. You can show pup how to deal with terrain by walking out there and showing him where to go. The same is true with obstacles and it is even easier with water, however you cannot show pup how to fight the wind because people are dead nosed and don’t understand what a super highway the wind is to a dog. Also, the wind has no edges you can teach the dog to avoid. It has no substance the dog can see but its effects are real and powerful.
Part of the solution starts with the first marks you throw for pup. Those marks should be designed to encourage pup to use his eyes rather than his nose and that practice should be followed for at least the first year of his life. We rarely throw marks into cover but we frequently throw marks past cover so pup will see the bird before he smells it. When we run sight blinds we use cross winds to get the pup used to running to a target to build the habit of running straight. We do the same thing into the wind to break the tendency to quarter.
I could go on about this forever because teaching pup to fight the wind is something you will have to train for his entire life and it is a lot like golf. You can only play the game. You cannot win the game.
 
#23 ·
Very good post.
 
#21 ·
Who is your audience? Judges picking factors to use in a test or handlers wanting to learn how factors AFFECT dogs? or both?

Is your question: what is the most significant factor to talk about? or what would one say about any of them? Your original post is a little vague which may be the reason you're not getting what you want.
 
#25 ·
Alright, I'll contribute as well. I'd like to expand on cover and angles, specifically changes in cover and how sharp angles forces dogs off line. Lets consider a mark, thrown such that the gunner is aligned with the bottom of the hill and the mark is thrown up the hill such the dog must carry the side hill for more than a short distance. For the sake of argument let's just say ~150 yds on a side hill. Let's also consider that enroute to this mark, there is a change in cover that is a strip of taller, thicker grasses that is at an angle, 45 degrees or less (a very skinny angle), on the line to the mark. The straight line to the mark would be along the side hill, through the strip at a skinny angle. Let's ignore other considerations such as wind, lighting etc......

Do you think the dog would:

1- carry the line to the mark
2- flare the cover and fall off the hill
3- climb the hill and square the cover


Under this scenario you've got a couple of "Factors" the dogs must deal with.

1- running a side hill at a distance is not something most dogs do willingly. I don't blame them, running a side hill is not the most efficient way to get from point A to point B. Most would climb or fall off.
2-Angled cover. I'll use an analogy Ted Shih brought up in an earlier thread I think illustrates this effectively. Consider a spear thrown at a shield at a 90 degree angle. Chances are the spear will have a good chance to penetrate the surface. Now consider a spear thrown at a shield which is held at a 45 degree angle. Chances are good the spear will deflect away from the shield. Consider the dog the spear and the cover the shield. The more severe the angle the likely hood a dog will "flare" away from the cover. Evan brought this definition up earlier in this thread.


Ted Shih had some earlier threads about setting up Derby marks and all age marks. Mind you it isn't the only way to do things, just the way he approaches training to which I concur. Some of these concepts were discussed in greater detail and you might find them helpful.

http://www.retrievertraining.net/for...ad.php?t=80394

http://www.retrievertraining.net/for...ad.php?t=80693
 
#27 ·
Alright, I'll contribute as well. I'd like to expand on cover and angles, specifically changes in cover and how sharp angles forces dogs off line. Lets consider a mark, thrown such that the gunner is aligned with the bottom of the hill and the mark is thrown up the hill such the dog must carry the side hill for more than a short distance. For the sake of argument let's just say ~150 yds on a side hill. Let's also consider that enroute to this mark, there is a change in cover that is a strip of taller, thicker grasses that is at an angle, 45 degrees or less (a very skinny angle), on the line to the mark. The straight line to the mark would be along the side hill, through the strip at a skinny angle. Let's ignore other considerations such as wind, lighting etc......

Do you think the dog would:

1- carry the line to the mark
2- flare the cover and fall off the hill
3- climb the hill and square the cover


Under this scenario you've got a couple of "Factors" the dogs must deal with.

1- running a side hill at a distance is not something most dogs do willingly. I don't blame them, running a side hill is not the most efficient way to get from point A to point B. Most would climb or fall off.
2-Angled cover. I'll use an analogy Ted Shih brought up in an earlier thread I think illustrates this effectively. Consider a spear thrown at a shield at a 90 degree angle. Chances are the spear will have a good chance to penetrate the surface. Now consider a spear thrown at a shield which is held at a 45 degree angle. Chances are good the spear will deflect away from the shield. Consider the dog the spear and the cover the shield. The more severe the angle the likely hood a dog will "flare" away from the cover. Evan brought this definition up earlier in this thread.


Ted Shih had some earlier threads about setting up Derby marks and all age marks. Mind you it isn't the only way to do things, just the way he approaches training to which I concur. Some of these concepts were discussed in greater detail and you might find them helpful.

http://www.retrievertraining.net/for...ad.php?t=80394

http://www.retrievertraining.net/for...ad.php?t=80693
Thank you O Warrior 300. I did "search" for similar threads, guess I'm too blatantly obvious. Your links do not work.404 Not Found.
 
#26 ·
Ok, in reading Lynn's post (and considering Dennis' reference to the nose) it would appear to me that wind may be more of a factor because of scent pulling the dog rather than because the wind is pushing the dog. And since we are talking about MH tests and distances rather than AA tests and distances, the push if the wind will obviously have less impact on the Dog's performance with the relatively short marks. So what important idea/tip/strategy can you emphasize for the handler with a roughly 2 - 3 year old dog with a good foundation in basics and getting ready to run AKC Master tests to help him/her deal with this factor of the wind?
 
#29 ·
Ok Gooser time:)
all this fancy talk a girls night out, killin threads, wind,terrain,lighting, all don't make a dip a difference UNLESS

ya first makes sure

dog can see guns ,,,dog can see birds ,,,dog can see the fall..
I think if more people would pay attention to those things first,,,, then we kin start discussin what AEFfects the dogs performance
 
#33 ·
I've seen you in bubbles and shorts, the Dawg has all things workin' in it's favor. Yes, Marks and Blinds, all things gnarly.
 
#30 ·
And a course all the above in my response is only relevant if we is talkin marking.

the lady never diferfrachaeated wether blinds er marks

gooser
 
#36 ·
Sorry the links didn't work. I searched and found these again, also copied and pasted into a new browser window and they came up so hopefully they work.

http://www.retrievertraining.net/fo...693-Setting-Up-Derby-Marks&highlight=ted+shih

http://www.retrievertraining.net/fo...-All-Age-set-of-Land-Marks&highlight=ted+shih

Both were great exercises in setting up marks and why features/space and other marks would push/pull dogs. Hopefully with the responses you've gotten you have enough material to talk about.
 
#38 ·
For the OP that is prepping a lecture on factors that AEFfect dogs at the master HT level.

i think discussion has to include the rules of the venue..

How many times have you seen dogs that avoid factors, but they very much know where the bird is when MARKING..
Is the line to that mark judged? by rule.

I suppose there will be some that will use the disturbing to much cover argument, but,, if the dog takes his own way to the mark,, deliberatly, with no hunt along the way to the AOF,, and once there,, establishes his hunt and picks up the bird,, why is there a debate on factors?? wont that dog pass?

Many hunt test venues dont judge the return. Very few HT participants worry about it when training. But yet, many Pros willtellyou, that its important to train the return becuse they believe a dog that cheats the return or is AEFected by Factors will do the same on the way out..

If we are talking MARKING and only the HT venues, and considering for the most part, the guns are hidden,how can we even consider how the "Factors" AEffect the dog, if we really arent SURE the dog saw the mark in the first place? We pretty much just Assume the dog SHOULD have seen it..
Judges Judge that dogs performance to the standard by watching the dog make the AOF with determination knowing clearly where the bird is. Do we judge the line??? Can a dog that cheats,, or avoids, or is influenced by Factors be a reliable marker, and PASS a HT? I think so!

I believe some times when a HT dog looses itsway on a mark,,and I hear folks say the dog caved to some diversion or factor, and that caused him to get lost,, I always ask myself,,how do they know FOR SURE the dog saw the mark? The Gun is hidden,, the timming between throws many be a bit fast, a miriad of reasons ,but what the problem is, we dont taken enough care many times to make sure the dog SEES! Many times I believe there are deliberate moves in HT to make it difficult for the dog NOT to SEE .
How can you have a discussion of factors AEFFecting a dog in that senario?

I believe much of the talk at the OP seminar, should include a serious discussion talking about making sure dog get every chance to SEE marks thrown..
And a discussion about NOT setting up tests that trick, or make it difficult for a dog to see...

Blinds are different. You are required to challenge the line that takes the most direct path to the bird. (Some Venues)
In that senario,, the Factors play a HUGE role... they are utilised,, and judges judge how the dog makes its way through them.
You dont have to consider a hidden gun, and wether the dog saw anything!

JMHO.

Gooser
 
#44 · (Edited)
For the OP that is prepping a lecture on factors that AEFfect dogs at the master HT level.

i think discussion has to include the rules of the venue..

How many times have you seen dogs that avoid factors, but they very much know where the bird is when MARKING..
Is the line to that mark judged? by rule.

I suppose there will be some that will use the disturbing to much cover argument, but,, if the dog takes his own way to the mark,, deliberatly, with no hunt along the way to the AOF,, and once there,, establishes his hunt and picks up the bird,, why is there a debate on factors?? wont that dog pass?

Many hunt test venues dont judge the return. Very few HT participants worry about it when training. But yet, many Pros willtellyou, that its important to train the return becuse they believe a dog that cheats the return or is AEFected by Factors will do the same on the way out..

If we are talking MARKING and only the HT venues, and considering for the most part, the guns are hidden,how can we even consider how the "Factors" AEffect the dog, if we really arent SURE the dog saw the mark in the first place? We pretty much just Assume the dog SHOULD have seen it..
Judges Judge that dogs performance to the standard by watching the dog make the AOF with determination knowing clearly where the bird is. Do we judge the line??? Can a dog that cheats,, or avoids, or is influenced by Factors be a reliable marker, and PASS a HT? I think so!

I believe some times when a HT dog looses itsway on a mark,,and I hear folks say the dog caved to some diversion or factor, and that caused him to get lost,, I always ask myself,,how do they know FOR SURE the dog saw the mark? The Gun is hidden,, the timming between throws many be a bit fast, a miriad of reasons ,but what the problem is, we dont taken enough care many times to make sure the dog SEES! Many times I believe there are deliberate moves in HT to make it difficult for the dog NOT to SEE .
How can you have a discussion of factors AEFFecting a dog in that senario?

I believe much of the talk at the OP seminar, should include a serious discussion talking about making sure dog get every chance to SEE marks thrown..
And a discussion about NOT setting up tests that trick, or make it difficult for a dog to see...

Blinds are different. You are required to challenge the line that takes the most direct path to the bird. (Some Venues)
In that senario,, the Factors play a HUGE role... they are utilised,, and judges judge how the dog makes its way through them.
You dont have to consider a hidden gun, and WETHER the dog saw anything!

JMHO.

Gooser
Interesting points, and sagacious they may be, but what the heck does a castrated sheep have to do with anything!!??
 
#43 ·
Sagacity????REALLYYY???

Thanks I think..

I have spent the last half hour by first looking up the definition of the word you used,, then I had to look up several of the words the dictionary used to define it.!!

Ya either complimennted the training group,, or you gave them sympathy sarcsticalistically.

Gooser

They's a special bunch a people.. I cant believe they invite me back each week..
 
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