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Thread: How Factors Effect Dogs

  1. #41
    Senior Member HPL's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by T-Pines View Post
    Since you brought it up ... I think Evan misread it as lightning, not lighting nor lightENing. Although, I do have a dog that isn't wild about thunder, but I have been working on it and I think the effect is lightening.

    Jim
    Very nice. I really like this one.
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  2. #42
    Senior Member RetrieversONLINE's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by captainjack View Post
    Ok, in reading Lynn's post (and considering Dennis' reference to the nose) it would appear to me that wind may be more of a factor because of scent pulling the dog rather than because the wind is pushing the dog. And since we are talking about MH tests and distances rather than AA tests and distances, the push if the wind will obviously have less impact on the Dog's performance with the relatively short marks. factor of the wind?So what important idea/tip/strategy can you emphasize for the handler with a roughly 2 - 3 year old dog with a good foundation in basics and getting ready to run AKC Master tests to help him/her deal with this
    ALWAYS play the WIND!

    Push will affect hunting in the area of the fall even at short distances. Will your dog hunt into the wind when he is in the area of the fall? Thorw lots of marks angled into the wind.

    On marks at a test, bias your dog to get the wind. In training, teach them to figt the wind but learn to stay in and area and persistently hunt the slighest whiff. But at the same time you need to teach them about drag-back--This is a tough combo and requires time and well-designed set-ups.

    On blinds at a test, be sure your ending is downwind BUT never gamble that your dog will smell the bird on the downwind side. In training, be sure you can get a cast into the wind at the end (or any time!). Bear down and concentrate on the endings in training so you can do it in tests.

    Wind saves are what dogs have noses for. The judge that downscores a "wind save" deserves to own a dog that can't smell!!!

    PS. Just more from the "wind" gallery!!!
    Dennis

  3. #43
    Senior Member MooseGooser's Avatar
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    Sagacity????REALLYYY???

    Thanks I think..

    I have spent the last half hour by first looking up the definition of the word you used,, then I had to look up several of the words the dictionary used to define it.!!

    Ya either complimennted the training group,, or you gave them sympathy sarcsticalistically.

    Gooser

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  4. #44
    Senior Member HPL's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MooseGooser View Post
    For the OP that is prepping a lecture on factors that AEFfect dogs at the master HT level.

    i think discussion has to include the rules of the venue..

    How many times have you seen dogs that avoid factors, but they very much know where the bird is when MARKING..
    Is the line to that mark judged? by rule.

    I suppose there will be some that will use the disturbing to much cover argument, but,, if the dog takes his own way to the mark,, deliberatly, with no hunt along the way to the AOF,, and once there,, establishes his hunt and picks up the bird,, why is there a debate on factors?? wont that dog pass?

    Many hunt test venues dont judge the return. Very few HT participants worry about it when training. But yet, many Pros willtellyou, that its important to train the return becuse they believe a dog that cheats the return or is AEFected by Factors will do the same on the way out..

    If we are talking MARKING and only the HT venues, and considering for the most part, the guns are hidden,how can we even consider how the "Factors" AEffect the dog, if we really arent SURE the dog saw the mark in the first place? We pretty much just Assume the dog SHOULD have seen it..
    Judges Judge that dogs performance to the standard by watching the dog make the AOF with determination knowing clearly where the bird is. Do we judge the line??? Can a dog that cheats,, or avoids, or is influenced by Factors be a reliable marker, and PASS a HT? I think so!

    I believe some times when a HT dog looses itsway on a mark,,and I hear folks say the dog caved to some diversion or factor, and that caused him to get lost,, I always ask myself,,how do they know FOR SURE the dog saw the mark? The Gun is hidden,, the timming between throws many be a bit fast, a miriad of reasons ,but what the problem is, we dont taken enough care many times to make sure the dog SEES! Many times I believe there are deliberate moves in HT to make it difficult for the dog NOT to SEE .
    How can you have a discussion of factors AEFFecting a dog in that senario?

    I believe much of the talk at the OP seminar, should include a serious discussion talking about making sure dog get every chance to SEE marks thrown..
    And a discussion about NOT setting up tests that trick, or make it difficult for a dog to see...

    Blinds are different. You are required to challenge the line that takes the most direct path to the bird. (Some Venues)
    In that senario,, the Factors play a HUGE role... they are utilised,, and judges judge how the dog makes its way through them.
    You dont have to consider a hidden gun, and WETHER the dog saw anything!

    JMHO.

    Gooser
    Interesting points, and sagacious they may be, but what the heck does a castrated sheep have to do with anything!!??
    Last edited by HPL; 10-04-2012 at 11:50 AM. Reason: EMPHASIS
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  5. #45
    Senior Member Evan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by T-Pines View Post
    Since you brought it up ... I think Evan misread it as lightning, not lighting nor lightENing. Although, I do have a dog that isn't wild about thunder, but I have been working on it and I think the effect is lightening.

    Jim
    Jim,

    Thanks. I just added an "e" that didn't belong. You're right, though; I misread "lighting" as "lightning". I don't know what the OP got upset about, but I think there have been numerous helpful responses.

    As an aside, by calling 'factors' a buzz word I don't mean to suggest that it's a new term. I just think it's become one of those words that has been tossed around so much that many people have come to use it without a clear understanding of its meaning. There is nothing cryptic about elements that fit the profile of a factor. But as people have been drawn into retriever sports I've noted that there is a self-imposed push to acquire the use of jargon, and that sometimes the meaning and significance of some terms is assumed incorrectly.

    I thought I understood what the OP was looking for until post #3. I hoped to be helpful, but have perhaps missed the mark.

    Evan
    Last edited by Evan; 10-04-2012 at 05:01 PM.
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  6. #46
    Senior Member Mary Lynn Metras's Avatar
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    I vote for wind discussion. I think it is really important when judges set the trial up to be very cognizant to use the wind to their favor. So it behoves the handles to understand how the dog will react and know how to correct when training and in a trial. Bird placement (downwind bird or if the bird is thrown into the wind) are important to discuss as to how the dog will react. JMHO
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  7. #47
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    Very good point here.

    I have had to learn that you can't watch the mark only, you have to see the mark with one eye and he dog with the other. I can always tell when my dog marked it and when he didn't.

    If for some reason I didn't see him, I can always ask him "Where's your mark?" and his reaction will tell me if he marked it. You may not want to do that at a test.

    If it is a second mark, I can tell by the way he comes back and lines himself up (or doesn't).

    On the factors, wind is the most pervasive it seems. Other than that, I have been taught to look at the line, and generally a dog wants to go where water would. Obviously this is not directly applicable to uphill marks.

    Do you guys put the birds where a dog doesn't want to go and then set the line based on the factors, or do you choose the line and factors and then place the bird?

    Quote Originally Posted by MooseGooser View Post
    For the OP that is prepping a lecture on factors that AEFfect dogs at the master HT level.

    i think discussion has to include the rules of the venue..

    How many times have you seen dogs that avoid factors, but they very much know where the bird is when MARKING..
    Is the line to that mark judged? by rule.

    I suppose there will be some that will use the disturbing to much cover argument, but,, if the dog takes his own way to the mark,, deliberatly, with no hunt along the way to the AOF,, and once there,, establishes his hunt and picks up the bird,, why is there a debate on factors?? wont that dog pass?

    Many hunt test venues dont judge the return. Very few HT participants worry about it when training. But yet, many Pros willtellyou, that its important to train the return becuse they believe a dog that cheats the return or is AEFected by Factors will do the same on the way out..

    If we are talking MARKING and only the HT venues, and considering for the most part, the guns are hidden,how can we even consider how the "Factors" AEffect the dog, if we really arent SURE the dog saw the mark in the first place? We pretty much just Assume the dog SHOULD have seen it..
    Judges Judge that dogs performance to the standard by watching the dog make the AOF with determination knowing clearly where the bird is. Do we judge the line??? Can a dog that cheats,, or avoids, or is influenced by Factors be a reliable marker, and PASS a HT? I think so!

    I believe some times when a HT dog looses itsway on a mark,,and I hear folks say the dog caved to some diversion or factor, and that caused him to get lost,, I always ask myself,,how do they know FOR SURE the dog saw the mark? The Gun is hidden,, the timming between throws many be a bit fast, a miriad of reasons ,but what the problem is, we dont taken enough care many times to make sure the dog SEES! Many times I believe there are deliberate moves in HT to make it difficult for the dog NOT to SEE .
    How can you have a discussion of factors AEFFecting a dog in that senario?

    I believe much of the talk at the OP seminar, should include a serious discussion talking about making sure dog get every chance to SEE marks thrown..
    And a discussion about NOT setting up tests that trick, or make it difficult for a dog to see...

    Blinds are different. You are required to challenge the line that takes the most direct path to the bird. (Some Venues)
    In that senario,, the Factors play a HUGE role... they are utilised,, and judges judge how the dog makes its way through them.
    You dont have to consider a hidden gun, and wether the dog saw anything!

    JMHO.

    Gooser

  8. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by RetrieversONLINE View Post
    ALWAYS play the WIND!

    Push will affect hunting in the area of the fall even at short distances. Will your dog hunt into the wind when he is in the area of the fall? Thorw lots of marks angled into the wind.

    On marks at a test, bias your dog to get the wind. In training, teach them to figt the wind but learn to stay in and area and persistently hunt the slighest whiff. But at the same time you need to teach them about drag-back--This is a tough combo and requires time and well-designed set-ups.

    On blinds at a test, be sure your ending is downwind BUT never gamble that your dog will smell the bird on the downwind side. In training, be sure you can get a cast into the wind at the end (or any time!). Bear down and concentrate on the endings in training so you can do it in tests.

    Wind saves are what dogs have noses for. The judge that downscores a "wind save" deserves to own a dog that can't smell!!!PS. Just more from the "wind" gallery!!!
    Dennis, years ago we had a section on judging the nose of a dog ...in the HT world...a wind save can look very impressive but if it is too far from the area ,should the dog recieve as good a score as one that was in the area?

  9. #49
    Senior Member RetrieversONLINE's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by steve schreiner View Post
    Dennis, years ago we had a section on judging the nose of a dog ...in the HT world...a wind save can look very impressive but if it is too far from the area ,should the dog recieve as good a score as one that was in the area?

    This is a good question albeit off the thread topic! When I judge I really pay attention and record where the dog started his hunt. That is where the dog first thought the bird was. After that is all about how well he hunts it up.

    On a mark where a dog is running past and smells a bird, I mark where the dog first smelled the bird as where he started his hunt!! Then he works out how to get the bird. If the dog smelled the bird two feet away, he obviously was very close to the bird. If he smelled it 50 yards away, he was not so close and is scored accordingly. So if the dog was out of the area of what I consider the fall and smelled the bird, of course he would not score as well. But I do not penalize the dog for smelling the bird-as I said that is why they have noses!!!

    I have found this to be a good way to deal with these long-distance so-called "wind saves" over the years.

    PS. I disagree with the philosphy of some HRC judges that penalize a dog on a blind for smelling the bird and going to it even if it is only 2-3 feet. That is not hunting up the bird, that is putting the dog where he can scoop up the bird in a few feet.
    Last edited by RetrieversONLINE; 10-04-2012 at 07:06 PM.
    Dennis

  10. #50
    Senior Member MooseGooser's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RetrieversONLINE View Post
    This is a good question albeit off the thread topic! When I judge I really pay attention and record where the dog started his hunt. That is where the dog first thought the bird was. After that is all about how well he hunts it up.

    On a mark where a dog is running past and smells a bird, I mark where the dog first smelled the bird as where he started his hunt!! Then he works out how to get the bird. If the dog smelled the bird two feet away, he obviously was very close to the bird. If he smelled it 50 yards away, he was not so close and is scored accordingly. So if the dog was out of the area of what I consider the fall and smelled the bird, of course he would not score as well. But I do not penalize the dog for smelling the bird-as I said that is why they have noses!!!

    I have found this to be a good way to deal with these long-distance so-called "wind saves" over the years.

    PS. I disagree with the philosphy of some HRC judges that penalize a dog on a blind for smelling the bird and going to it even if it is only 2-3 feet. That is not hunting up the bird, that is putting the dog where he can scoop up the bird in a few feet.
    We talk about factors a lot.

    I have rarely had anyone when discussing factors,add the factor of water current.


    Dennis, I am surprised at your remark about some Hrc judges.
    I have not experienced this. In fact the rule book clearly states that the dogs nose is a valuable asset, and the dog should not be penalized for honoring it.
    what I have seen is dogs on blinds that as soon as the handler sends, the dog drops its nose, and hunts all the way out on the blind, until the dog winds the bird
    the handler will show little if any control, and not demonstrate team work,and the dog will be dropped.
    Last edited by MooseGooser; 10-04-2012 at 08:10 PM.
    It is far easier to spit on the work of others than it is to produce something better yourself.
    Brynmoors Prairie Sage JH ​(Sage) Just a dang fool huntin Dawg
    HRCH Calypso Seven Bales High SH (Bailey)
    HR Calypso Zoomin Loosies Mad Hader (Maddi) We loved you baby. R.I.P.
    FlatLanders Broken Pistol Ricochet (Flinch)


    My Christian Name is Michael Baker..
    I have gone by "Gooser" since I was a "gossling"

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