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Wont pick up goose

8K views 28 replies 9 participants last post by  Brooke11 
#1 ·
I have a 1.5yr yellow lab that i have been training for waterfowl hunting. I took her last fall at the age of 6 months and she retrieved two ducks and one goose. The goose she retrieved was completely floating in the water so all she had to do was drag it back in the water. During the early goose season this year it was obvious that she did not know how/ or did not want to pick up goose and bring it back. I started working with her everyday on throwing a dead goose around the yard (that i have been keeping in the freezer). I began by tossing this dead goose into a pile of fallen trees so that she would have to 'pick it up' rather than just dragging it through the yard. This has been working - she is bringing it back to me everytime. I took her hunting last week and i was able to bring down two geese for her. I sent her to out to retieve the first, which was in very shallow water (no swiming required for her). She went out and nosed it but still would not pick it up. The other goose landed on land and Brooke also ran out to check out that bird but still would not pick it up. I am trying to figure out why she picks up geese in the yard but is still not picking them up in the field. I dont know if it is the difference between a semi frozen goose and a fresh bloody one....Any thoughts?

Many people have recommended that Brooke needs to be force fetched but Brooke reacts badly to negative reinforcement so i would rather not force fetch her. I know this is the most highly recommended solution but i know my dog and this is not the way to go with this pup. I began by trying to train her with a shock collar (the same as my old lab) but once again, negative reinforcement does not work.. Brooke is the second dog i have trained for waterfowl hunting (so i am by no means a pro). Brooke has everything else i am looking for: a great nose, patience, takes a line, and instictive (and is light years ahead of my old lab for her age). It may be that Brooke just needs more exposure to hunting and birds and that i am getting too impatient but any suggestions would be helpful. Thanks all in advance:)
 
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#2 ·
There was a recent previous post dealing with this with a slightly different twist. You might search and see if any of those suggestions would help you.
 
#3 ·
You can teach a fetch command without the force. I have seen it but this also must be done correctly. As far as force fetching goes, you say your dog doesn't respond well to the pressure. What kind of pressure have you used? What were the circumstances? How did she react?

You just might be using the wrong kind of pressure. Also, Wayne has good advice.
 
#4 ·
I started with her with the shock collar (very minimal shock level) and as soon as i get the shock collar out she quits doing EVERYTHING - she will just go hide- she looses all interest in retrieving. I have tried the pressue to the toe (toe hitch) however, the vet that removed her dew claws did an aweful job and there is still part of the claw under the skin so she HATES her feet to be touched at all - has since the day i brought her home. I tried pressure to her ear but i fear that this will cause the same problem i already have with her feet - eventually she will not let me near her ears. The last thing i want the dog to do is to not trust me. All the training i have done and the progress we have made together has been due to praise and i can usually get her to do what i want just by changing the tone of my voice. i have recently used a whistle but it has been very minimal - if she deviates from the training, like gets side tracked when coming back to me with the dummy, i just use the whistle and that puts her back on the track of coming back to me.
 
#5 ·
There are very few dogs that can't be force fetched. I would suggest that you get some pro help or an experienced amateur.

Try putting the ecollar on your dog and let her play with it on for 10-15 minutes each day. Not trying to be critical but maybe you got ahead of yourself with the ecollar and didn't properly introduce it.

Are you following a training program? Which one?
 
#9 ·
I am not following any specific training program. I am training based off of my past experience training my last lab (11yrs old) and have reading the "water dog" book for some guidence. Though my past experience with my old lab taught me a lot, the two dogs are very different. My old lab mack is head strong and aggressive - i used the shock collar with her and she took to it well. I never had a problem with her retieving birds due to her aggressive nature. Do you have a training program you suggest?
 
#6 · (Edited)
Brooke, from what you describe I would re-evaluate my use of the collar. You also need to use other types of pressure. I think you have a couple of options. You can FF using other methods. You can work on a forced hold. You can counter condition the ecollar.

I have to ask if your dog might have gotten hurt while retrieving a goose, maybe a feisty cripple, tangle in some weeds, etc.?

If you would like to hear more, PM me.
 
#12 ·
I mistakely used the e collar about a year ago to correct a drywall chewing incident in our mudroom - fixed the drywall problem but now i have caused a training problem. What other types of pressure do you recommend? What other methods can i use for force fetch (other than the toe hitch or ear pinch). If i can train her without the collar that would be ideal - i had to use the collar on my old lab since she was very stubborn. Using a different method would be great. Brooke never got hurt from a goose - i have made sure they have all been dead and there was nothing to get tangled in.. It is just odd to me that she will do what i ask of her in the yard but will not retrieve a goose in the field.. I saw your pm but i am currenlty working so i cannot give you a call.
 
#7 ·
Welcome to RTF Brooke!

Wow! I kinda do not know were to start.
From the run and hide dog to the dew claw line, Gosh!
Lets all just back up a bit. Most of "our" retrievers jump with glee when the E-collar comes out, as it is time to go training.
Who's Collar Conditioning program did you use to introduce your dog to the E-collar stimulation?
Do you put the collar on her every time you train or just now and again?
Were did you learn about force fetch? From a program you are following, step by step. Or from interaction with your training buddies? Did you teach the hold command at all?
What do you do when your dog runs and hides? You could be teaching her this is a good way to get out of work.
 
#8 ·
You said you were trying to use an e-collar with her without positive results. Was she properly introduced to the e-collar? Did you collar condition her with known commands, such as "sit", "here", 'kennel" so she understands how to turn the pressure off before you started into using the collar in the field? As others have asked, are you following a program and if so making sure you are following all the steps and not skipping ahead trying to "finish off" the training faster.

If you post a location, there may be a retriever club in your area and very knowledgable members who could help you with your training.
 
#10 ·
I recomend clicking the banner add at top of this page for Mike Lardy's total retriever program. Start with the printed articles vol 1, 2 & 3. Start with vol one only if you need. They are about $25 each. While there his E-collar conditioning vid is very very nice. You very much need it. And print out the flow chart while you are there. Waterdog is very old, yet still keeps pro dog trainers busy. Fixing the issues new folks give the dogs from using it.
 
#11 · (Edited)
The training program that I recommend is Total Retriever Training, 2d edit. See banner above. There are several other good ones:
Smartworks by Evan Graham
Fowldogs by Rick S.

There is lots of information on this site about these programs. You could do a search and find tons of information about who likes what, and what is contained in the program.

Ken beat me to the punch in recommending Mike Lardy. I second his opinion on Water Dog by Richard Wolters. It is very much outdated and doesn't deal with force fetch or ecollar conditioning.
 
#13 ·
From what you've typed i dont really think you've given ear pinch, collar pressure a fair shake at this point by going through a GOOD force fetch program, and are giving up on it from 1 poor choice a year ago. Youre also making an assumption that the ear pinch will cause a result of her not wanting to be near you. can you find a reputable pro close to you that could see your dog and make a professional assessment?
 
#14 ·
My old dog jumps with glee with the e collar and i guess i thought Brooke would as well, but it is very apparent to me: two different two dogs may require two different types of training. i only tried the collar for training a couple of times. as soon as i put it on her she will not even retrieve. i learned about FF from ppl on michigan sportsmans forum and from what i have read online. i have not taught her to hold - i have been focusing on the basics of sit, stay, direction, use of smell, and bringing the bird all the way back to me. holding was next on my list but i have refocused on her actually picking up a fresh goose as this seems to be a bigger problem to me.
 
#16 ·
it sounds to me like you took your old dogs E-collar and "Lit Up" your young dog for flossing with the wall-board without propper, fair E-Collar conditioning. Also sounds like you have a smart dog that remembers the wall-board situation. This is a good dog to train.
BUT....
From the wee few posts here, I feel you can not do it alone. You can not do it from the internets. You can not do it from waterdog. Let us find you a local retriever club with a good am. or a pro near you.
 
#17 ·
You sir, have no foundation under your house that you are trying to build. No meaness inteded. You are, for sure, in need of a plan. Follow the advice above, find some QUALITY material and some QUALITY help.
 
#18 · (Edited)
Why such a secret as to where here is?

It is not uncommon for dogs to do things in the yard and when they get out they just want to sniff around. I have seen this a lot in dogs brought to me to train. They need to get out of the yard and explore. There used to be an old adage on ob, that you had to do ob in five different places before you could consider a dogs ob was good.

To a certain extent the same is true with retrieving.
 
#19 ·
Put the e-collar away for the season. Your dog only associates it with getting lit up for chewing on the wallboards.
Finish you goose season.
They afterwards start with "Hold". Only pressure needed is gentle pressure. Your NOT slamming or shoving objects in his mouth. I would use small canvas dummies, or wooden dowels and I only do it a couple of times for short periods of time making sure you are praising at the proper time. I have a overly sensitive dog that I have in my house now and we may work on hold many times of the day useing lots of praise for effort. Work up to longer periods of time. "IF" you feel that you are NOT making progress then seek out professional help. If money is an issue then work out a deal (I'll throw for you, Or clean your kennels, fix your... if you can help me with my dog).
Same thing with the collar.
Good Luck
Sue
 
#20 ·
Hi Brooke11, I just went through this last month with my yellow male. It's not unusual for the dog not to pick up the goose. they're big, heavy, birds, and a lot more to handle than any duck. His first experience was with a goose my buddy shot during early season. Threw it out in the yard, very excited, went out, mouthed it, sniffed it, pulled some feathers trying to pick it up gingerly, and finally looked at me as if to say " just what am I supposed to do with this monster dad?". He's been force fetched and knows hold, I put the goose in his mouth, commanded hold, praised, then give. Put it back in, hold, backed off a few feet, commanded here, he dropped it. Back in, hold, here, and he brought it to me and held it. My buddy took it out about 30 yds, threw it, I sent Zip, he got to the bird and really had to work at getting it in his mouth, and brought it back, lots of praise. That was it, he started jumping around excited, and no more hesitation with geese. But through all of this, I needed the very basics, fetch, hold. I agree with the others here, find some experienced help, look around for a club near you, that would give you some people to help get you going. Good luck.
 
#23 ·
Hi again all.
well have taken your advice and have been working on FF with my dog and after about a week i now have a couple more questions based on what i am seeing from her. I am using the ear pinch method. It took her about one afternoon for her to get the picture - grab bumper and pinch stops. She is now grabbing the bumper upon the fetch command without any pinch whatsoever. She is also holding upon my command (this took her two days). So i got the dead goose out of hte freezer and she is now only bringing that back half way and then proceeds to drop it and lick it. So i dont know if this is because i have not FF'd her enough yet (i kinda quite pinching her since she will grab the bumper out of my hand upon my command)?.. Or do i need to FF her wth dead birds too? It may also be that i am trying to work with her too much (and she is getting board) but i dont know since i have never taught FF. Any thoughts?
Thanks
 
#24 ·
FF should take MUCH longer than a week...as in weeks to month(maybe more) of short 5-15 min sessions. You have not FF the dog at all. You need some help or a good FF video to watch.
 
#26 ·
Someone here did post some youtube videos of thier progress throughout. You check those out if you can find them as another reference. I would still look at a complete video.
 
#27 ·
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