The RetrieverTraining.Net Forums The Retriever Academy
Total Retriever Training with Mike Lardy
Hawkeye Media Gunners Up Tritronics Gun Dog Broker
Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 10 of 16

Thread: Teaching a pup to Hold ......

  1. #1
    Junior Member 8ptDuck's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2012
    Location
    Birmingham AL
    Posts
    21

    Default Teaching a pup to Hold ......

    training bumper in mouth til command is given out to release or give


    Do you have to force fetch this or is something that the pup can learn on their own?
    My pup now isnt forced fetched. Bumper she will bring all the way back but drop at my feet. I have tried to force the bumper in her mouth and make her hold it. She cowers down and wont have anything to do with it. Back during dove season she hand delivered every bird she brought back... GO FIGURE!!!

    I was just curious if anyone has seen this where the pup can learn it without being force fetched??

  2. #2
    Senior Member JoeOverby's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Georgia
    Posts
    469

    Default

    Hold is just part of FF. Yes, you can teach hold without pinching her ear, or toe, or anything else for that matter. Now i'll go ahead and ask since its inevitably coming...
    1. Are you a member of a retriever club?
    2. Are you a member of a training group?
    3. Is there a pro or experienced amateur locally you can use to help oversee this process?
    4. Why would you not force fetch?
    5. Are you following a PROVEN training program.
    6. If so which one?
    7. The 3 most commonly talked about are TRT by Mike Lardy, Smartwork by Evan Graham, and Fowl Dogs by Rick Stawski.
    8. What have you done up to this point?
    9. Are you gonna use an e-collar? If so which brand? There are plenty of quality used collars for sale here in the Classifieds section. The 2 most popular are Dogtra and Tri Tronics.
    10. Where are you located?
    Joe Overby
    Candler Creek Retrievers
    www.candlercreekretrievers.com
    GRHRCH UH "Hooch" MH (HRC 1500 pt. club)
    HRCH "Tater"

  3. #3
    Junior Member 8ptDuck's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2012
    Location
    Birmingham AL
    Posts
    21

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by JoeOverby View Post
    Hold is just part of FF. Yes, you can teach hold without pinching her ear, or toe, or anything else for that matter. Now i'll go ahead and ask since its inevitably coming...
    1. Are you a member of a retriever club? No, I didnt know it was a must in order to train a dog
    2. Are you a member of a training group? I was working with friends that ran trials before I moved
    3. Is there a pro or experienced amateur locally you can use to help oversee this process? Dont know of any
    4. Why would you not force fetch? I actually have never done it and was told you could ruin a pup if you did it wrong
    5. Are you following a PROVEN training program. I have read Water Dog and watched the DVD by Charles Jurney.
    6. If so which one? Answer above
    7. The 3 most commonly talked about are TRT by Mike Lardy, Smartwork by Evan Graham, and Fowl Dogs by Rick Stawski.
    8. What have you done up to this point? Pup is very obediant. She marks well, does short blinds well (at times).
    9. Are you gonna use an e-collar? If so which brand? There are plenty of quality used collars for sale here in the Classifieds section. The 2 most popular are Dogtra and Tri Tronics. I use a sport dog. It does what I need it to do
    10. Where are you located? Birmingham AL
    I trained a black lab myself with the help of some friends by answering questions. My BLF did everything I needed her to do besides drive the truck and shoot the gun. I lucked out with her. Hand signals, whistles you name it she just about did it. I never FF her. However she passed away so I am starting over with my golden retriever. I couldnt get her to retrieve a little over a month ago. I took her dove hunting just to go and she retrieved to hand no problem. Then when I would throw bumpers she wouldnt even retrieve. Up to about 2 1/2 weeks ago she just "caught the bug" I guess you could say. She will bring bumper to my feet then drop. I do retrieves off of a stand and she holds them until I take it out of her mouth. Its just very confusing to me why she will do that but not standing on ground. Ever so often she will retrieve to hand. So its more frustrating than anything.

    Im just being honest here. I dont want a dog to have medals and ribbons. Im not trying to offend anyone. But I know the people on here have good advice so thats why I joined after reading for sometime. I want a pup that will bring a dead duck/dove on my hunts to me and follow my commands. And most of the time she does this with the exception of dropping bumpers at my feet.

    I have tried to force the bumper in her mouth and take my hand and hold her mouth shut. She cowers down likes she is getting beat. I have never laid a hand to her but just stern with my voice. She knows by the sound of my voice how she is acting and when she isnt doing what is right she cowers down at times. She's still very young (8 months) So I may be early for FF anyway. I was just curious if a dog can learn it on their own.

  4. #4
    Administrator Chris Atkinson's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    Mount Zion, IL
    Posts
    6,745

    Default

    8pt,

    Welcome to RTF.

    Getting your dog from the starting point to the place you want to go is very much like taking a trip in a car from one place to another. One man's preferred route is another man's boring ride.

    It is absolutely possible to get a dog to deliver to hand without undergoing a force fetch process. Richard Wolters himself did it ...right up until his last dog Southland RAW's Duck Soup. Duck was indeed force fetched - by Charlie Jurney, the trainer in the VHS tape.

    Being in a club is not a must for training a retriever.

    There are established training programs out there that are laid out in a stepwise fashion. They build from basic building blocks to lay a foundation and gradually advance to future steps. With these programs, folks have already used dogs as the "experiments" to see what tends to work well and what does not.

    Many folks on here who follow a training program have been there and done it both ways. I trained a few retrievers in my own interpretation of Waterdog before choosing to open my mind and try it the Lardy way. I doubt that I'll go back....whether I want an FC/AFC or just a hunting companion in the blind and upland field.

    You have written that you've heard that a force fetch program can ruin a dog. Yet your post above sounds like you've attempted to do your own modification of what most of us would consider to be a part of a force fetch progression. And it looks like you're getting signals that she's either avoiding and confused, or possibly truly scared.

    There is no single "right way" to do it.

    I'll send you a PM. Please look at the link up on top next to the welcome sign where it shows your username. There's a link that says "notifications"...please click that and see the PM.

    Chris
    "Determining and applying the criteria for when and when not to use correction is the essence of the art of dog training. I make a distinction between a mistake and a lack of effort." - Mike Lardy - Volume I "After Collar Conditioning"

  5. #5
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    Fall City, WA
    Posts
    4,640

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Chris Atkinson View Post
    8pt,

    There is no single "right way" to do it.

    Chris
    Might not be a single "right way" to do it but, pretty much everyone will agree there is a "wrong way" to do it.

  6. #6
    Administrator Chris Atkinson's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    Mount Zion, IL
    Posts
    6,745

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul "Happy" Gilmore View Post
    Might not be a single "right way" to do it but, pretty much everyone will agree there is a "wrong way" to do it.
    A wrong way? Or lots of wrong ways?


    Lots of dogs, and lots of trainers, have gone before us helping some pretty darn successful programs get established. I'm a fan of taking advantage of all that valid traininig material out there and applying it to optimize my training success.
    "Determining and applying the criteria for when and when not to use correction is the essence of the art of dog training. I make a distinction between a mistake and a lack of effort." - Mike Lardy - Volume I "After Collar Conditioning"

  7. #7
    Senior Member MooseGooser's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2003
    Location
    Colorado
    Posts
    6,983

    Default

    Difference of opinion from Gooser!!

    Who'da thunk!

    I think what the OP is describing is a meat dawg!!

    I have had 2.

    I lucked out with the second one,, and was able to get some ribbons on her.

    I tried to follow Lardy with her. I FF'd her myself.

    I will say this today. Up till TODAY,, I dont think I have ever owned a TRULY FF'd dog.

    I dont think I have EVER had a very good grasp on the Lardy material...

    That FIRST and SECOND dawg of mine NEVER left a bird in the field... They both ran very simple blinds. Not pretty,, but could handel the dog to be in position downwind of a bird,, then let the dog do its job.. They did fine for me .. I enjoyed my time in the field with them immensly.

    The dog I currently have,, A pro and a very dedicated training group is helping me.. My eyes have been opened WIDE... and my Ears are like a donkey...


    If you cant find a training group,, or you want to do this on your own,,, the advice of the Lardy stuff is sound,, but I felt hard to follow on my first dog..



    I would suggest to you to get a copy of the following book.

    Training a retriever for marshes and meadows by James Spencer..

    I taught my first dog from this book.
    I taught him blinds by running to white buckets. (everybody here just cringed)
    I Follwed his FF proceedure which is simple for both you and the dog.
    I believe what I really ended up with was a good "Hold"

    For what you describe you want,, these are methods that will get you there that are simple,, if YOU stay consistent.

    JMHDAO.


    Gooser
    It is far easier to spit on the work of others than it is to produce something better yourself.
    Brynmoors Prairie Sage JH ​(Sage) Just a dang fool huntin Dawg
    HRCH Calypso Seven Bales High SH (Bailey)
    HR Calypso Zoomin Loosies Mad Hader (Maddi) We loved you baby. R.I.P.
    FlatLanders Broken Pistol Ricochet (Flinch)


    My Christian Name is Michael Baker..
    I have gone by "Gooser" since I was a "gossling"

  8. #8
    Senior Member Bartona500's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Location
    Tupelo, Mississippi
    Posts
    342

    Default

    I'll catch hell for this, but if you want to completely avoid force fetch and do just a "hold" program, Stewart (Wildrose Way) does that. For just a meat dog, it is a good one to get her to hold the bumper all the way in and sit. It has several easy steps, and you will definitely need to avoid skipping any of them if you want it to work.

    *Disclaimer - I really don't intend this to start a "wildrose way" debate! There have been plenty of those.
    -Barton Ramsey

  9. #9
    Senior Member Gunner's Dad's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2012
    Location
    Canton Tx
    Posts
    123

    Default

    well since we are being controversial, milner's technique worked great fire me till I drank the trt cool-aid.

    when dog comes in you praise, praise, and slip your hand under chin so bumper can't fall out and praise more. start short and work up till she is sitting and holding. fit a meat dog milner had some really good points and suggestions on how to do things with out force.
    Benjamin Fain

  10. #10
    Junior Member 8ptDuck's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2012
    Location
    Birmingham AL
    Posts
    21

    Default

    To all that commented, Thanks. Seems that everyone had great points in their posts to try and help me. I will take a look at each and see what best fits what I will be doing. I appreciate you not absolutely pounding me when I asked the question. I knew that FF is a topic that most see as a "need" for a pup. She is gradually taking steps in the right direction. She amazes me every single day. Take this morning for instence. I made her load on her stand before I fed her. Threw 1 bumper around 30 yards out. She goes and retrieves bumper loads on stand and holds bird until I made her release. I feel she knows what I expect and want from her. Like I said I appreciate all the comments.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •