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Thread: GM, Chrysler tell Romney he's wrong about Chinese jobs claim

  1. #61
    Senior Member zeus3925's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by road kill View Post
    The perception is that labor unions contribute and vote heavily in favor of the Democrats.
    Hence a voting block.

    If you have information to the contrary, that would be interesting to see.
    The Teamsters have been Republican supporters in the past. Don't know about now. Perhaps a Teamster can enlighten us.
    Zeus

    I don't want to feed an ugly dog!

  2. #62
    Senior Member JS's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by road kill View Post
    The perception is that labor unions contribute and vote heavily in favor of the Democrats.
    Hence a voting block.

    If you have information to the contrary, that would be interesting to see.
    You are very observant!! The Democratic platform and, with rare exceptions, Democrat candidates better represent the interests of our membership as well as the ability of the leaders to represent. The very right of workers to organize and act collectively if they choose is not to be taken for granted. You do live in Wisconsin, right!

    Additionally, in our view, the platform of the Dems on other issues, social and economic, align more closely with the needs of the working class in general. In the end, nobody ever gets everything they want ... democracy is an exercise in compromise and human nature seems to be that we complain more about what we don't get than celebrate what we do get. But we all support those that best represent our views and none of us should have to apologize for that.

    As far as contributing and voting heavily in favor of Democrats, that needs to be taken in perspective. If the unions had nearly as much clout in the running of the country that outsiders think, things would be a whole lot different! Remember NAFTA? That sure wasn't a labor friendly item. And even though it was drafted by a previous administration, we had our president in office when it came across the desk and rather than kill it, he signed it under pressure. So much for labor's big stick.

    Despite common perception, union members do not vote in a solid block regardless of the endorsements of the leadership. Many of the young members value the benefits but don't have an understanding of how they were won and how easily they can be taken away. They have not made the investment that the old organizers did and don't have the same priorities. They are more concerned about their new boat or snowmobile ... things they would not be able to afford had not the oldtimers plowed the ground ... to be worried about voting. Part of the reason for the decline of the labor movement in the country. (Not that much different from the problems faced by retriever clubs )

    Labor's financial contributions are restricted more than people realize, too. Most people don't know that union dues money can NOT be used for political contributions. We can use some in educational efforts toward our own members and that type of activity but financial contributions to parties or candidates must be funded by voluntary, special contributions from the members.

    No question the unions heavily support the Dems most of the time, but we are a ways down the list in terms of having a major influence in the party.

    JS
    “Don’t wave your phony patriotism in MY face! If you really love America, open your wallet and hire an American kid to build what you buy. Think of all our problems that might solve.” Doug Fraser (paraphrased) 1980

    Real Americans buy American.



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  3. #63
    Senior Member zeus3925's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by achiro View Post
    Was anything done in the bailout to change the overall situation of GM or Chrysler? In other words in a bankruptcy they would have worked on their debt, made changes to allow for financial stability(and hopefully growth in the long term), and some other stuff that goes along with a bankruptcy. Did they do any of that or are they in the same situation as before? If they did any of that, did they do enough for long term sustainability or is it a short term gain/long term loss sort of thing?
    First the old GM continues on as Motors Liquidation Company. Old Chrysler continues on as Old Car Co. Those companies are essentially there to settle legal claims against the old GM and the old Chrysler and to dispose of any assets remaining from the old companies. In effect, the government governments of US and Canada provided start up capital for the new companies, now known as General Motors and Chrysler respectively. The new Chrysler was in turn purchased by Fiat. This allowed the new GM and Chrysler to pick and purchase the most viable assets of the old companies. The new GM, for instance, did not purchase Pontiac, Saturn, Hummer, and Saab. This allowed the companies to obtain the most productive facilities and the most popular brands.

    There is no question there had to be changes at the top. The Daimler purchase of Chrysler proved to be a disasterous. There were cultural clashes from the get go. Daimler saw Chrysler as a dumping ground for their hand me down platforms. They failed to come to an understanding of of the American market and the American workforce. Essentially, Daimler ran the company into the ground. The sale to Cerberus Capital Management did little to improve old Chrysler's position. The sale to Fiat was a way to clear the slate. Sergio Marchionne ( who hold both Canadian and Italian citizenships) is a known turn around expert. Chrysler has paid off all its debt to the government and Fiat has purchased all the government owned stock acquired during the bailouts.

    The management of GM had become rather petrified in their approach. It still went by Charlie Wilson's maxim, "What's good for GM is good for the country". Management at GM never fostered good relations with its line workers. Indicative of management's outlook was their private term for their hourly employees: "shop rats". If you ever lived in an GM town, then you would know what a civic octopus the old GM could be. They could be outright imperial. The guys at the top needed a thumping and they got it when Obama and his minions sent them packing as a condition of the restructuring.

    The proof is in the pudding. Both companies are profitable and sales are increasing. New product lines are in development or are being debuted. The auto workforce is now in expansion. A bankruptcy of either of the two would have spelled disaster up an down the supply chain. Ford, even though avoided a financial crisis, stated it too would be in jeopardy if its competitors bit the dust.
    Last edited by zeus3925; 11-01-2012 at 02:16 PM.
    Zeus

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  4. #64
    Senior Member huntinman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zeus3925 View Post
    First the old GM continues on as Motors Liquidation Company. Old Chrysler continues on as Old Car Co. Those companies are essentially there to settle legal claims against the old GM and the old Chrysler and to dispose of any assets remaining from the old companies. In effect, the government governments of US and Canada provided start up capital for the new companies, now known as General Motors and Chrysler respectively. The new Chrysler was in turn purchased by Fiat. This allowed the new GM and Chrysler to pick and purchase the most viable assets of the old companies. The new GM, for instance, did not purchase Pontiac, Saturn, Hummer, and Saab. This allowed the companies to obtain the most productive facilities and the most popular brands.

    There is no question there had to be changes at the top. The Daimler purchase of Chrysler proved to be a disasterous. There were cultural clashes from the get go. Daimler saw Chrysler as a dumping ground for their hand me down platforms. They failed to come to an understanding of of the American market and the American workforce. Essentially, Daimler ran the company into the ground. The sale to Cerberus Capital Management did little to improve old Chrysler's position. The sale to Fiat was a way to clear the slate. Sergio Marchionne ( who hold both Canadian and Italian citizenships) is a known turn around expert. Chrysler has paid off all its debt to the government and Fiat has purchased all the government owned stock acquired during the bailouts.

    The management of GM had become rather petrified in their approach. It still went by Charlie Wilson's maxim, "What's good for GM is good for the country". Management at GM never fostered good relations with its line workers. Indicative of management's outlook was their private term for their hourly employees: "shop rats". If you ever lived in an GM town, then you would know what a civic octopus the old GM could be. They could be outright imperial. The guys at the top needed a thumping and they got it when Obama and his minions sent them packing as a condition of the restructuring.

    The proof is in the pudding. Both companies are profitable and sales are increasing. New product lines are in development or are being debuted. The auto workforce is now in expansion. A bankruptcy of either of the two would have spelled disaster up an down the supply chain. Ford, even though avoided a financial crisis, stated it too would be in jeopardy if its competitors bit the dust.
    If something sounds too good to be true it usually is. No disrespect intended... but your story sounds too good to be true.

    Ford buyer for life regards...
    Bill Davis

  5. #65
    Senior Member Buzz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by huntinman View Post
    If something sounds too good to be true it usually is. No disrespect intended... but your story sounds too good to be true.

    Ford buyer for life regards...
    I loaded up on F stock right after they stated that they didn't need a bail out. So, I'm happy to hear that.
    "For everyone to whom much is given, of him shall much be required." -- Luke 12:48

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  6. #66
    Senior Member JS's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zeus3925 View Post


    .........




    The proof is in the pudding. Both companies are profitable and sales are increasing. New product lines are in development or are being debuted. The auto workforce is now in expansion. A bankruptcy of either of the two would have spelled disaster up an down the supply chain. Ford, even though avoided a financial crisis, stated it too would be in jeopardy if its competitors bit the dust.
    AND, labor/management relations are better than they have ever been. Labor at all levels is given input, provided with important heretofore "secret" information, and is a cooperative force in the success of the business.

    JS
    “Don’t wave your phony patriotism in MY face! If you really love America, open your wallet and hire an American kid to build what you buy. Think of all our problems that might solve.” Doug Fraser (paraphrased) 1980

    Real Americans buy American.



    Snowshoe's All American Guy SH, UDX, WCX ... CODY ... at the bridge
    CH. Snowshoe's Girl Crazy MH, UD, WCX, SDHF, OS ... PRESLEY
    ... at the bridge
    Millpond's Baby Boomer MH*** ... BABE
    Snowshoe's Crazy For Lovin You SH ... NELSON

  7. #67
    Senior Member JS's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JS View Post
    AND, labor/management relations are better than they have ever been. Labor at all levels is given input, provided with important heretofore "secret" information, and is a cooperative force in the success of the business.

    JS
    No intent to mislead or suggest this is directly attributable to the stimulus we are discussing. This movement started in the early/mid 80s under the buzzwords 'employee involvement", "Japanese management style", etc. These early joint labor/management efforts to improve relations and better run the business were met with extreme cynicism and mistrust on the part of both sides. Many in middle management levels felt threatened and stonewalled the efforts. Ditto for some of the old school union officials who would never trust management.

    As the business climate further deteriorated, management became more willing to "try anything", heads rolled and resistance lessened. I am merely speculating that the recent dire straits of the auto industry contributed to the success in implementing a lot of those changes.

    But it came on Obama's watch so he gets credit.

    JS
    “Don’t wave your phony patriotism in MY face! If you really love America, open your wallet and hire an American kid to build what you buy. Think of all our problems that might solve.” Doug Fraser (paraphrased) 1980

    Real Americans buy American.



    Snowshoe's All American Guy SH, UDX, WCX ... CODY ... at the bridge
    CH. Snowshoe's Girl Crazy MH, UD, WCX, SDHF, OS ... PRESLEY
    ... at the bridge
    Millpond's Baby Boomer MH*** ... BABE
    Snowshoe's Crazy For Lovin You SH ... NELSON

  8. #68
    Senior Member zeus3925's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by huntinman View Post
    If something sounds too good to be true it usually is. No disrespect intended... but your story sounds too good to be true.

    Ford buyer for life regards...
    Well Huntingman, I had no intention of telling a "good" story or embellishing one. I grew up in Michigan. My family and my wife's family have been involved in every phase of the car business from management to production to sales. My immediate family worked for Ford--including my mom. An uncle was in management at Chrysler. My wife's family worked for GM and her brother was a sales manager for for Mike Flannery Chevrolet. (Some of you might know Mike Flannery as the owner of River Oaks Corky.) I worked at Ford and I own a F-150. Cars are in my blood.

    But, say you can check out my story. There's something called Google you know.
    Zeus

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    Quote Originally Posted by Buzz View Post
    The US has been paid in full for Chrysler's bail out. From what I saw, 45% of the company is owned by it's US workers. Fiat says they will not be looking to buy more of the company. If you followed things closely at the time, Fiat was the only suitor that could be found to take a stake in the company. Millions of jobs were saved, millions were kept off of unemployment, welfare, food stamps, and medicaid. Millions of families who could have lost everything did not. An entire industry was saved and a state may have been kept from dire dire consequences. If you don't see the upside there, then there is literally nothing I can ever say that can change your mind.
    Interesting I would like to read the article that support your facts, two month ago Forbes ran an article on it, they claim the Chysler's bailout is not paid in full (nor will it ever be) and that Fiat owns 58.5% of Chrysler and 41.5% is owned by a health care trust for UAW retirees.

  10. #70
    Senior Member roseberry's Avatar
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    i don't think a guy who rode around europe on a bicycle with a tie on for two years in order to tell folk about his church would lie to me about where cars are made or our presidents impact on industry.

    i don't think a guy who has worked so hard to organize communities and who has served our country(maybe not his) his entire life would lie to me about venture capitalists outsourcing jobs or his opponents role in these ventures.

    i could be wrong?
    john mccallie

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