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Handle at a Hunt test

10K views 58 replies 30 participants last post by  Dman 
#1 · (Edited)
I know nothing about hunt tests except what I've read on RTF. Is it correct that in a marking test you are allowed to handle and still get called back?

If you can, is it a common thing or rarely done?
 
#2 ·
It is fairly common, but it has been my experience that it should be a clean handle and the dog needs to show that he at least marked the bird well enough to be near the area of the fall. I handle it just as if I were hunting, I don't want my dog hunting all over the place if I can see he's close to the bird but not coming up with it I handle.

John
 
#6 ·
I've seen dogs handle and place...
 
#5 ·
Are you typically only allowed one handle in a given test. For example, you had to handle on the land series, therefore you may not be able to on the water series (if needed)?
 
#9 ·
I think the other thing to consider is the notion of handling "IN" the area of the fall, versus handling "TO" the fall.

It's been written and said that "not all handles are created equally".

Another passage written in some rulebooks is "A crisp handle is preferable to a long hunt".

I think that, much is within the judges' interpretation. I think a good set of judges will evaluate the overall situation and not come into it with too many preconceived notions.
 
#20 · (Edited)
Junior test - one handle on 4 marks (singles) could be enough to get a pass depending on handle and work on other 3 marks

Senior test - a singular handle on 1 double could be enough to get a pass depending on handle and work on other double and blinds. Handling on both doubles should not be passable work (unless there were some extreme conditions in which case a re-run(s) should have taken place).

Master - difficult to pass when one doesn't complete a clean triple. Possible to handle on 2 triples, run the 3rd triple very good and very good blinds and pass. 2 handles and 1 uglybutt hunt on the third (swallowed whistle) generally doesn't cut it (and shouldn't). Double handle in one series is going to cost points big time but could feasible pass if other work was immaculate I suppose.

Edit to add: I believe that Junior is the only stake that the AKC rulebook actually gives direction on the number of allowable handles (one). If you have to handle on more than that (50% or more), you should not pass. I know for sure that there is no listed maximum number of handles given/listed for Master.
 
#22 ·
Edit to add: I believe that Junior is the only stake that the AKC rulebook actually gives direction on the number of allowable handles (one). If you have to handle on more than that (50% or more), you should not pass. I know for sure that there is no listed maximum number of handles given/listed for Master.
Not true. The Jan 1, 2012 amendments to the rules removed the limit of handling in Junior. A handler can handle all he wants. It's up to the judge to judge his dog. IOW, Junior is the same as Senior and Master. Marking is marking and a dog is being judged on marking during the marking tests. Essentially, it is as Karen says....do what you have to do and make the judge score your dog.
 
#24 ·
No, just curious. A lot of dogs qualify for the MN, and everyone was talking about impending changes.
 
#25 ·
I do know now that I will not run junior without a dog that knows how to handle! It reduces the stress tremendously! Especially with a young dog. Like one who runs full bore to get the flyer...bird boy moves behind the blind, ducks go nuts, dog makes sharp right to ducks. They are more fun! Was able to handle her out of blind and to flyer. If you could seen her face on the way back... Very sheepish! :). Got some pics of the blind with a tail sticking up in the air where she was play bowing to the darn birds...

Passed that day! Clean handle and other 3 were clean marks.

Sue Puff
 
#28 ·
Exact same thing happened to me in our first JH test, only my bonehead was not play bowing to the bird pen, he was trying to drag it back with him. I still get a lot of razzing about that one. Why retrieve one shot bird when you just found the mother lode???
 
#29 ·
On my third junior hunt test the judges set out about a half dozen duck decoys in the middle of a channel and in line to the bird. My dog was one of 5 dogs that got caught up in the decoys and got all turned around. 4 of the dogs became confused and returned to their handler but I was able to get control of my dog with a set whisle and casted her back to the bird. I passed
 
#31 ·
IMO, outside of freak things happening, such as what was talked about previously, if my personal dog has to handle on Jr single I don't want the ribbon. I wont even to attempt to handle to another mark I'll rope the dog and donate. Now if you desperately want that ribbon. Get in there and fight and let the judges make the decision. IMO if you have to handle to more than one mark in Senior you just did junior work and didn't make the cut for senior.
Now there are extenuating circumstances but if every other dog is killing the test and you are handling you may need to spend more time throwing marks and less time running tests. In no way am I pointing fingers at anyone in this thread. Just giving you what is going through my head when I am on the line watching my dogs run. Everyone is different. I don't like getting ribbons for what I think is sloppy work out of a dog I know is better than that.
 
#37 ·
I respect your thought on the matter and admire your gumption in holding your dog to a higher standard than some judges would. Like you said, everyone is different so I'm not arguing with you. There are times when my dog totally fails a test by lack of effort or just being a jerk, in those cases I'll pick him up in a heartbeat, but there are times where he's just lost and needs help to get that mark, I'll handle in those cases. I'm not necessarily handling in order to get that ribbon, though many times I am, mostly I want to reward a good effort and build on our teamwork.

John
 
#32 ·
Nice post Jon.
 
#34 · (Edited)
I too am of the opinion that at the test or trial one should let the dogs dog, the judges judge and the handlers handle .........;-)
Do what it takes to get the bird and let the judges sort it out.

john
 
#38 · (Edited)
Tell me is I am wrong.

marking is of primary importance.

If a Handler handels TO the AOF,, the dog clearly didnt mark..
if the handeler Handels TO the AOF multikipular times,, then the dog didnt mark miltipicular.

if the Dog goes directly to the AOF and Hunts,,, but for some reason,, what ever it is,, and it is having a hard time comming up with the bird,, and the Handler handels IN the AOF... Didnt the dog MARK?????

Isnt MARKING of PRIMARY IMPORTANCE???


handeling TO the AOF====== Dog didnt mark.

Handeling IN the AOF===== Dog Marked..

RIGHT????


The same for all stakes.. all venues,,,,,, RIGHT????


Gooser
 
#40 ·
You are not wrong. However, you are working with numbers, and not common sense. In order to pass, you need an aggregate of 7, with a minimum of 5 in any category. Just because they "did not mark" does not mean that they will get less than 5 in marking category.

With that explanation, is marking of primary importance in hunt tests, since they are tested, equally, with other categories such as training, perseverance and style?
 
#39 ·
You can Handel all ya want!!

Your dog is gonna show the judge weather it can mark or not..

If you handel,, Then Ya can show how well your handeling skills are... marking is over as soon as you blow the whistle..

RIGHT???

Gooser
 
#41 ·
Wait!!!!!

let me get this straight..

if a dog didnt mark,,by not going to the AOF and establishing a hunt on its own,,, then does that dog not get a ZERO in marking on that mark?
He didnt mark....

How can he recieve any number other than zero??

Gooser
 
#44 ·
You will have to call Jerry Mann for that one Gooser. When we were in a judges seminar (AKC), he said that in the exact situation that you mentioned, the dog does not receive a score for that mark. He did not say they receive a zero.

technicality, semantics, etc. Yes.

I personally agree with your thoughts, but when you are working with a numerical scale, it is left open for a very large range of what people see. Their AOF may be a lot larger than your AOF. They may feel that the dog started to hunt in the area of fall, but just did not dig back far enough, or went a little too far, and kept digging back, etc. It is not a pass of fail situation, when dealing with a scale of 0-10. It is just that. A scale of 0-10.

Everyone has their own opinion of what the area of fall is. That allows for you to score a 0, and your co judge to score anywhere from 0-10, which in the end, after all marks are thrown, can still get them the wonderful little ribbon.
 
#43 ·
In My Opinion..

All a Handel does ,, is save you,, by meeting the requirement that the dog has to come back with the bird.


In Junior,,, most of the dogs I have witnessed,, cant handel,, so it makes the situation even worse..

The dog didnt mark,,, then the handeler shows his stuff handeling... :):)


The Judges are already gonna have marked on your sheet weather the dog MARKED that fall or not, by the dogs performance of making the AOF..

Gooser
 
#47 ·
Quote:
By implying that a handle immediately indicates the dog did not mark the fall, is incorrect.


I really dont think I implyed that.
I said,, If you handel TO the AOF,,, the dog did not mark..

If you handel IN the AOF,, the dog marked.
 
#49 ·
When I blow my whistle and start handling to a bird, I have announced to the world that my dog didn't mark. If I am handling back to the area then my dog isn't demonstrating perserverence. Tooting on that whistle is a testament. That is how I see it. If the dog is in the area of the fall hunting what kind of DAH is going to handle that dog. If as a judge, dogs are consistantly handing in the area of the fall the question should be why? Are the falls so close that big hunts will cause a switch? Is there a crate of ducks or a bird technician playing on his I phone that pulls dogs away from the fall? If that is the case then judge as fairly as possible. If it is a set up issue learn from it and don't repeat the same mistake the next time you judge.

Marking is of primary importance. To quote Forrest Gump "that is all I have to say about that".
 
#56 ·
When I blow my whistle and start handling to a bird, I have announced to the world that my dog didn't mark. If I am handling back to the area then my dog isn't demonstrating perserverence. Tooting on that whistle is a testament. That is how I see it. If the dog is in the area of the fall hunting what kind of DAH is going to handle that dog. If as a judge, dogs are consistantly handing in the area of the fall the question should be why? Are the falls so close that big hunts will cause a switch? Is there a crate of ducks or a bird technician playing on his I phone that pulls dogs away from the fall? If that is the case then judge as fairly as possible. If it is a set up issue learn from it and don't repeat the same mistake the next time you judge. Marking is of primary importance. To quote Forrest Gump "that is all I have to say about that".
I want to see a dog hunt the area until it comes up with the bird ...Not just a run in and the handler put a whistle on him...If the dog can't come up with it own its own I don't consider it much of a mark ....I'm not a quick whistle better than a long hunt fan...If the dog is out of the area hunting,handle to the area ,no score on that bird or 0 but not for the series....there are other birds to take into consideration for marking...big difference between o on a bird and 0 on a series.....Steve S
 
#52 ·
I would hope judges discuss the size of the particular AOF BEFORE the tests start.

as soon as you blow the whistle,the marking part of the test is over
 
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