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Thread: Unions

  1. #11
    Senior Member JS's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HPL View Post
    I have read and re-read Marvin's initial post here and as it reads, he was simply asking what proportion of unionized workers are in the "public" sector and what proportion are in the private sector. Your post indicating that approximately 50% of union workers are in the public sector actually finally answered Marvin's initial question and at the same time showed that those being paid by the taxpayer are disproportionately unionized, and that last part is what is really worth discussing.
    Well, discuss on.

    Does someone owe someone an apology??

    I don't know what you mean by "disproportionate". I would guess that among the clergy, the percentage would be zero. What's the point?

    JS
    Last edited by JS; 11-02-2012 at 04:07 PM.
    “Don’t wave your phony patriotism in MY face! If you really love America, open your wallet and hire an American kid to build what you buy. Think of all our problems that might solve.” Doug Fraser (paraphrased) 1980

    Real Americans buy American.



    Snowshoe's All American Guy SH, UDX, WCX ... CODY ... at the bridge
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  2. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by JS View Post
    Does someone owe someone an apology??
    As long as it is owed no one will get beat out of it, but I don't think so.

    Here's my experience with union - both sides - Grew up in a RTW state, SD. Buzz the good union man lives there now. You have to ask yourself "why did his company choose to locate there?"

    1st experience with a union was the Mine Mill in Butte - as a contract miner, paid my dues, & made money through my & my partners hard work. Later worked in a sales position part time - union dues not required until I outsold the regulars & all of a sudden, dues were required including back dues, so I quit. There were no student loans so times were pinchy my last 3 months in school, but I survived.

    Then went to work as a trainee at Climax Molybdenum - shift boss 8 months later - union contract specified that a miner was vested after 30 calendar days. I fought a lot of grievances but learned a lot about the psyche of people who only want to draw a paycheck. I have always felt the boss set the standard for his crew & you were not doing someone a favor who was not performing to keep them onboard. I also got hardworkers who were unable to perform the work underground reassigned to other jobs where they could be productive. Needless to say I got my job done but left that company over their promotion policy.

    Next it was back to Butte as a Shift Boss at a mine that was reopening - same union I had belonged to as a miner, only now I am administering the contract. The company had a hiring hall so men could be discharged with impunity & go back to work that afternoon on swing shift. The president of the union also made the same as the lowest paid underground employee, which I thought to be . I was later made an Assistant Foreman & had many good discussions about union with our guy who kept the Mine Dry (Locker Room) clean along with the Mine Office. He knew I was not a union sympathizer but explained how it had been prior to a union being in Butte & he made some good points, Much to the shock of management I left that job after 3 1/2 years (with a clear path to the top) over a salary dispute, which was one of the smarter moves of my career.

    Back to Boeing - as an engineer, basically a beginner, made the same salary for a 40 hour week (with only myself to answer for) that I had been making for a 66 hour week in Butte with 400 men & 15 shift bosses to look after. The thrill of being in charge goes away quickly when there is little money left over & getting time off was unheard of.

    At Boeing I joined the Engineers Association, paid my dues, & generally stayed out of affairs except for input about negotiations. It generally boiled down to things being put into our contract that management & the unrepresented needed. Drug treatment being a good example - most engineers are pretty square, as a group they don't do drugs & I would imagine their children follow that. I was asked once to be a negotiator but felt their was too little an understanding by the rank & file of engineers about what negotiations were so turned that down. The Association then began allowing other than engineers to belong & over the years it has gone from professional to just another union. Which culminated in the longest white collar strike in history a few years back.

    We worked alongside the machinist union members - I have great respect for the mechanics & tooling people - beyond that, the majority of the union members are overpaid for their contribution. It is small wonder Boeing moved another line to SC (another RTW state) to gain some labor negotiation traction. We saw how the BHO administation viewed that.

    & while I was doing all that I was a School Board member & chair of the negotiations committee for 5 1/2 years - I have sat face to face with the teachers - & trust me most don't like engineers, you may pick your reason, I have mine - It was an experience & the 1st time they had faced a situation where if they wanted something, what were they willing to give in return? So those are my experiences with a lot of detail left out -

    There are 4 factions to this union thing - 1) private union workers, 2) private union hierarchy, 3) public union employees & 4) public union hierarchy. My sympathies only lie with !) the private union workers, to a point, but they are in the position that getting too greedy could mean their job relocates, whether it be overseas or stateside. When you change providers there will be a lowering of quality, for how long is a question, but the folks who count the beans don't really care. & that's the way it is .
    Last edited by Marvin S; 11-02-2012 at 10:23 PM.
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  3. #13
    Senior Member JS's Avatar
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    I was not expecting a resume’ Marvin, but thank you. I am gone for the weekend but will reciprocate Monday.

    There are fleeting indications in there that you may be a somewhat reasonable guy! Scary! Actually, I thought you put me on your ignore list 10 years ago when I called you a “bitter old man” in a thread about your judging database. I thought at the time it left a mark but maybe not. Or maybe it did and you are over it. Or maybe you now see an opportunity to get even and are just sucking me in.

    You commented that you left a couple jobs over promotion and salary disputes. Without prying into personal issues, I wonder if you care to expound? Were you seeking to improve your lot in these situations or did you think the company was being too generous? That’s none of my business, so ... just wondering.

    Have a good weekend.

    JS
    “Don’t wave your phony patriotism in MY face! If you really love America, open your wallet and hire an American kid to build what you buy. Think of all our problems that might solve.” Doug Fraser (paraphrased) 1980

    Real Americans buy American.



    Snowshoe's All American Guy SH, UDX, WCX ... CODY ... at the bridge
    CH. Snowshoe's Girl Crazy MH, UD, WCX, SDHF, OS ... PRESLEY
    ... at the bridge
    Millpond's Baby Boomer MH*** ... BABE
    Snowshoe's Crazy For Lovin You SH ... NELSON

  4. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by JS View Post
    I was not expecting a resume’ Marvin, but thank you. I am gone for the weekend but will reciprocate Monday.

    There are fleeting indications in there that you may be a somewhat reasonable guy! Scary! Actually, I thought you put me on your ignore list 10 years ago when I called you a “bitter old man” in a thread about your judging database. I thought at the time it left a mark but maybe not. Or maybe it did and you are over it. Or maybe you now see an opportunity to get even and are just sucking me in.

    You commented that you left a couple jobs over promotion and salary disputes. Without prying into personal issues, I wonder if you care to expound? Were you seeking to improve your lot in these situations or did you think the company was being too generous? That’s none of my business, so ... just wondering.

    Have a good weekend.

    JS
    I rarely put anyone on ignore - I can pick up on stupid so there is not a need to reply to them - TBS, what I found with the database is those who were the loudest in their criticism also had the fewest, if any, pelts on their wall in our end of the sport, that being FT's. I have a lot of e-mails from folks who played our game seriously applauding my effort. I've never played the game of suckering anyone, they seem to be able to do that on their own.

    As for the jobs thing - the 1st company I left was one that did not base promotions on merit, the second company based them on merit but was unwilling to pay. When I left the 2nd company I had to go talk to the VP of Western Operations before they would give me my last check. I wasn't in the room 5 minutes when I realized I had made the right choice in leaving.

    I was also lucky enough to work for some really good managers during my maturation on the management side, as this was the days those on the practical side (meaning sans a sheepskin) were numerous & they were a wealth of knowledge for someone willing to listen & observe the results of their efforts. As I thought about this the 1st company was very strict about appointing their practical guys on merit but those with a sheepskin not so much so. The 2nd company was the opposite - merit on the educated side, on the practical side not so much so which may have been due to the fact the best guys were contracting & could easily beat a shift bosses salary with less hours.

    My reason for the brief resume was to put those on notice who are supporters of public employee unions without realizing (or maybe they do) that there is a difference & they need to be able to defend their position. I'm really waiting for some of those out of MN, MI & Buzz to add their . I have no shortage of war stories about this subject just waiting for the experts to line up their weaponry .
    Last edited by Marvin S; 11-05-2012 at 11:09 PM.
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  5. #15
    Senior Member JS's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marvin S View Post

    .......

    My reason for the brief resume was to put those on notice who are supporters of public employee unions without realizing (or maybe they do) that there is a difference & they need to be able to defend their position. I'm really waiting for some of those out of MN, MI & Buzz to add their . I have no shortage of war stories about this subject just waiting for the experts to line up their weaponry .

    brief: concise in expression; using few words. introductions were brief and polite.
    My brief resume tops yours in quantity by an 1093 - 827 margin. Part of my weaponry is to wear you down with pure verbiage.

    I graduated high school in 1956 not knowing what I wanted to do next. I had no way to pay for college, even if I could have worked for room & board. A couple of upper classmen friends had joined the Navy and convinced me that may be a good option ... earn the GI bill and go to school later.

    After boot camp I qualified for sonar school and through that experience, developed an interest in getting on a submarine. I applied and by the time I was approved, I had to extend my enlistment obligation to get into submarine school. Best duty in the USN and the entire military, by far! It is a culture in itself and “grows a young kid up” in a hurry!

    Come time to be discharged, I was married with the first of my 5 beautiful daughters and the 2nd on the way. College is on the back burner again. I had some Navy training in electronics (sonar maintenance) and was qualified for a job in that field but I stumbled into the employment office at John Deere and found work at nearly twice the earnings. For a kid in my situation, that was a no-brainer.

    I went to work in the foundry. (This was a 1960 foundry ... not the modern ones of today. Most on this forum have never even walked through one. Hot, dirty, stinky and hard, hard work, with high turnover. But the pay was good.) Work in the agricultural implement factories was seasonal at that time and I was laid off after about 6 months. By the time I was called back a year later, I had landed a job as a route salesman/driver for Wonder Bread. Long hours, 6 days a week but the work was enjoyable and the pay was comparable and I had decided I was going to make my career there, so I declined recall to Deere.

    After 5 years, circumstances changed on the bread route and Deere was hiring. I returned there in 1966. Back to the foundry where most all new employees start. After a time, I amassed enough seniority to get a job in a metal stamping/pressing department. And later, on to assembly line work.

    Labor/management relations were contentious at that time, far more so than anywhere today. As I gained experience in the “real world” I began to take a greater interest in our UAW contract and in the role of the union in general. I was encouraged by my peers to run, and was elected as shop steward. Over time, I earned the respect and confidence of my co-workers and local union leadership and was approached to move up


    I served my local UAW membership in various capacities for 25 years, including as vice president. We were/are the largest local union in the state, representing the 3 Deere plants in our town; engine manufacturing, component manufacturing, and assembly. We had a over 12,000 members the first time I stood a plant-wide election.

    side note:
    During this time, I was also approached several times by management to accept various salaried positions. This was a common practice on the part of management, partly because you have proven your effectiveness in executing your union responsibilities, (they wanted you) and partly because you have proven your effectiveness in executing your union responsibilities, (they wanted you out of their hair). Though the bennies were much better, that route did not look attractive to me for a number of other reasons.

    Among my specific areas of responsibility was overseeing our incentive pay system, a sophisticated, Frederick Taylor based model developed by management industrial engineers and accepted by the union as a part of our contract. I was trained by the company in the same classroom along with the new IEs and my role was to investigate grievances related to that system and resolve them jointly with the company. I was also involved with our CAP (Community Action Program), the political action committee. This was largely weekend conferences, meetings, etc. to educate ourselves and stay abreast of political issues as they affected our members.

    I was prodded numerous times by upper union officials to accept appointments to International Union positions but I was looking to downsize my travel and weekend commitments, not expand them. Plus, moving to Chicago ...

    After about 20 years, my dream job came along. In the early 80s, the buzz word in labor/management became “Employment Involvement”. John Deere and the UAW agreed to launch such an effort with the help and guidance of an outstanding management consulting firm specializing in this stuff. One of our local plants was selected as a pilot for that program. By now I had returned to school, completely through night classes at the University of Northern Iowa. As a psychology major, I had become fascinated with the subject of job enrichment; the design of the work process itself, team building, and all that stuff. I was offered the chance to be the union coordinator and work jointly with a middle management counterpart appointed by the company. I jumped at it and we shared the same office full time and headed up that effort for the last 10 years of my working life. We were joined at the hip in what would have been political suicide for each of us, had we not been committed to the effort. Through the success we had, the program was adopted throughout the Deere chain. Our experiences and the impact we had on the relationships from the front corner office to the shop floor, AS WELL AS the effectiveness of our business operation, would fill many books! To this day, I talk occasionally with my counterparts and reminisce about the way things changed and what we had to do with it.

    I don’t know much about the inner workings of trade unions other than what I have learned through casual conversations. Neither do I have any direct experience with public sector unions, but I do know a little about them as my wife was a teacher for 34 years.

    I am proud that, during my career, I earned the respect and friendship of a great many folks; constituents, members of upper management and upper union officials. At my retirement party, I choked up numerous times, not because I was leaving work, but because of those who came to wish me well. Some I had not seen for years ... including a couple former plant managers, one who had moved on to become a corporate VP.

    JS
    “Don’t wave your phony patriotism in MY face! If you really love America, open your wallet and hire an American kid to build what you buy. Think of all our problems that might solve.” Doug Fraser (paraphrased) 1980

    Real Americans buy American.



    Snowshoe's All American Guy SH, UDX, WCX ... CODY ... at the bridge
    CH. Snowshoe's Girl Crazy MH, UD, WCX, SDHF, OS ... PRESLEY
    ... at the bridge
    Millpond's Baby Boomer MH*** ... BABE
    Snowshoe's Crazy For Lovin You SH ... NELSON

  6. #16
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    Unions strong arm part time workers and steal their money while providing no benefits or representation that they promise.

  7. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by JS View Post
    My brief resume tops yours in quantity by an 1093 - 827 margin. Part of my weaponry is to wear you down with pure verbiage.
    Your resume is impressive - TBS - I have found all unions have different operating MO's, sorta like businesses - some do a good job for their folks, most don't -

    When I left - I did not inform my bosses until that day, so they had to promote one of my guys . Took everyone to lunch & when they asked informed them that this was probably the only free lunch they would get in their life, as I wanted nothing from them . I really enjoyed what I did, the adrenalin rush of keeping a line moving is hard to duplicate & especially one where you are moving acoup[le of 30 mil or more units out the door daily.

    Still waiting for the experts on unions to weigh in .
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  8. #18
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    Being a former unionista when going to school in Mpls. Voted it in, and voted it out. A small company of only 15. It was needed when we voted it in, and no longer necessary when we voted it out.

    The best 'documentary' on unions is a book authored by Linda Chavez/ Daniel Grey. Being a former union official, she has the insight to "tell it like it is", and it's understandable why the Democrat party doesn't want this book to be read by anyone. Some Democrats SHOULD be reading this, so they get knowledgeable about where their dues are going.

    UB
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  9. #19
    Senior Member JS's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Uncle Bill View Post
    Being a former unionista when going to school in Mpls. Voted it in, and voted it out. A small company of only 15. It was needed when we voted it in, and no longer necessary when we voted it out.

    The best 'documentary' on unions is a book authored by Linda Chavez/ Daniel Grey. Being a former union official, she has the insight to "tell it like it is", and it's understandable why the Democrat party doesn't want this book to be read by anyone. Some Democrats SHOULD be reading this, so they get knowledgeable about where their dues are going.

    UB

    Uncle Bill, once again you demonstrate that you look at the world through a toilet paper tube. You briefly belonged to a small union local until it served your needs (I am surprised you admitted that much) and then you "dropped out", retaining the benefits. Is that your definition of a "unionista"? I always wondered what that meant.

    Then you cite a single "documentary" that will tell folks all they want to know about the labor movement. Not surprising coming from someone who appears to get ALL their "news" ... using that term loosely ... from a single source. I would look that book up had the suggestion come from someone with credibility, but you lost yours long ago by repeatedly posting misinformation and outright lies without bothering to check their factuality. (the last one, even including a self-debunking link! Really!?) Thing is, I have not only read a number of anti-union writings, I have lived it. However I can provide you with some reading sources depicting the positive side, but I imagine you would not want to waste your time with that. Wrong "facts".

    Broaden your horizons and then come back and talk to me.

    JS
    Last edited by JS; 11-08-2012 at 02:05 PM.
    “Don’t wave your phony patriotism in MY face! If you really love America, open your wallet and hire an American kid to build what you buy. Think of all our problems that might solve.” Doug Fraser (paraphrased) 1980

    Real Americans buy American.



    Snowshoe's All American Guy SH, UDX, WCX ... CODY ... at the bridge
    CH. Snowshoe's Girl Crazy MH, UD, WCX, SDHF, OS ... PRESLEY
    ... at the bridge
    Millpond's Baby Boomer MH*** ... BABE
    Snowshoe's Crazy For Lovin You SH ... NELSON

  10. #20
    Senior Member menmon's Avatar
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    Dues keep the lights on at the union hall and pay the business manager and assistants salary and and cost associated with them doing there job. If the membership believes that they are misusing these funds and not doing their job the vote them out. I portion of it go the international office and it does the same there too.

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