Hard Mouth thoughts

[mountaindogs]

Have you ever had a dog that was a whiner? Its almost like that same state of mind. Not always aware he is doing it. Now with birds he HAS to be aware because he munches HARD.

[steve schreiner]

Very! He will hold nicely for 10 minutes, will carry around, he will stop this munching when corrected. But I have to watch to correct promptly. Its fast and hard to time. I could maybe video it. Its maybe 2 chomps per second and rythmic and he will stop with the nick but you have to SEE it. The owner does not catch it. With birds (quail are small) one hard CHOMP and its squished. Even if I correct and stop it its too late really. So then he gets to hold the squished guts falling out bird for several minutes and he does not munching again and releasing to hand.
However I do think that the first stages of picking up and returning are the worst. Maybe I need more focus on pick-up? Maybe there is a piece there that I could prevent the chomp somehow. I do pre-cue HOLD as he goes to pick up but I still have to watch for a chomp very closely.

The question was ask about the hold issue before you moved to ff....If the dog has to be corrected for hold when walking you may have rushed the step....Hold means hold like sit means sit....Steve S

[mountaindogs]

Now, He will hold nicely *while I am watching* If his handler gets slack he gets slack. I can keep it managed but the owner can not. But I have to stay attentive to it. I did not rush it. Hold was most all of our work and we revisit it often to keep him correct. I expected a still mouth and tolerate NO rolling or munching or head bobbing... hold is hold it completly still. Then we did carry and return before the reach because the hold was THE reason. I wanted all of the hold right. I did possibly rush the reach though looking back because we spent SO SO long on hold. Now I am wondering if the bird munching being worse on the first few steps back is reflecting something I missed when we started the reach.

[steve schreiner]

Now, He will hold nicely *while I am watching* If his handler gets slack he gets slack. I can keep it managed but the owner can not. But I have to stay attentive to it. I did not rush it. Hold was most all of our work and we revisit it often to keep him correct. I expected a still mouth and tolerate NO rolling or munching or head bobbing... hold is hold it completly still. Then we did carry and return before the reach because the hold was THE reason. I wanted all of the hold right. I did possibly rush the reach though looking back because we spent SO SO long on hold. Now I am wondering if the bird munching being worse on the first few steps back is reflecting something I missed when we started the reach.

Please clarify this statement ...in red ...The first few steps back is where I got lost...It sounds like you have done a very good job of trying to prevent a problem and establish proper behavior...some dogs are tougher than others to train ...Bird dogs especially seem to like to crunch and maul...Steve S

[Sue Kiefer]

Also you need to reread yopur thread. I hear too many times you said "He only chomped once on a bumper or he only chomped this time.............
Red flags for me.
This "IS" a delicate issue. Probably NOt solved without seeing the dog.
I like to have my dogs (clients and personal) open mouth and move there head AWAY from the object when "I" say "drop".
They are then letting me take control of the object totally.

JMHPO
Sue

[mountaindogs]

Steve, I will try. When he picks up a quail it is usually in cover and his head is down. When he turns to face me and starts back he is moving fast but also chomping hard. He will chomp several times before my hold nick hold nick hold nick gets through to him and then he stops and holds correctly orat least better. He oftens stops and freezes all together and I give here followed immediatly by hold and he comes back and sits or stops in front and waits for me to take the bird. I do hold the legs loosly for a second and then say drop while I keep my hand still holding legs so he has to move away. With bumpers it is both more managable and harder to catch because he is less intense about it. But the more excited he is the more likely he is to fall into it.

[mountaindogs]

Sue, I will re read. Maybe I am missing something.

[pmw]

Over the years I have trained and trialled a lot of GSPs both on wild quail and pigeons for simulated duck hunting. The most common point I have found for crunching is on the pick up or immediately afterwards which I believe is the main problem here? These dogs are usually hard driving. My thought is that one has to slow the dog on the pick up to ensure it thinks about what it is doing. Have done this by stopping the dog as it gets to the bird (sit) then give the fetch command. If this does not work go out and give the ear pinch with the fetch command (assuming the dog as been thoroughly FFd) . You can then heel the dog with you whilst holding the bird or leave it on a sit stay and recall. Using various distances, etc with perserverence this can be effective. An alternative which if it works is easier: instead of sitting the dog beside the bird - give it a nick just as it is going to pick the bird up. This in my experience slows the dog right down and sometimes blink but with a hard going dog it is easy then to give the fetch command and the dog will pick up the bird.

Good luck!

[steve schreiner]

Steve, I will try. When he picks up a quail it is usually in cover and his head is down. When he turns to face me and starts back he is moving fast but also chomping hard. He will chomp several times before my hold nick hold nick hold nick gets through to him and then he stops and holds correctly orat least better. He oftens stops and freezes all together and I give here followed immediatly by hold and he comes back and sits or stops in front and waits for me to take the bird. I do hold the legs loosly for a second and then say drop while I keep my hand still holding legs so he has to move away. With bumpers it is both more managable and harder to catch because he is less intense about it. But the more excited he is the more likely he is to fall into it.

It sounds like it is mostly in the pick up where things go wrong.....I sent you a PM a few days ago , did you get it ? The dog has to learn to pick up the bird gently ...not a hold issue as I see it ...two different parts of the retrieve ...Steve S

[Jim Imbertson]

Trained with a dog once who would sort've flatten birds, he used 2 chomp, when that was corrected he learned he could flatten, much harder to watch for. Something that worked and that the owner was able to maintain, was to shake up a coke and make him carry that around, if he got to tuff, it'd spray him in the face which is unpleasant. Anytime the mouth issue came back about dog had a little session with the coke can and became very mindful of the pressure he was exerting with his mouth. The owner was a little surprised when three 12 packs of coke appeared on the his training bill, & he buys off brand now

I've heard of this seems like something I need to try.
Word of caution, make sure the soda does not contain Aspartame, a artifical sweetner which is poisonous to dogs.