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Thread: Positive or Negavite based training for 6-month retriever

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    Default Positive or Negavite based training for 6-month retriever

    Hi,

    By PR I specifically mean the treat-based clicker training. NR I'm referring specifically to the use of prong and/or shock collars. I know this is a fairly polarizing subject, but I'm hoping for some objective advice.

    Our situation is that our retriever will not be a hunting dog, but we do want him trained well and would like to do CD and UD trials as a way to give us goals and structure to his training. We have a trainer in town that is fairly well recognized, using prong collars and such for NR type training. After our first session with her she just has us working on walking him with the prong collar.

    Now, people close to me have taught me this type of training is inhumane, and can be especially dangerous to both the dog's mental and physical health. So, I'm a bit worried about continuing on with this training. But, on the other hand, it is undoubtedly effective, and I'm curious to know if this stigma is due to people misusing such devices or can NR, even when taught properly, really 'ruin the dog', instill trust issues, etc?

    Is PR just as effective for basic obedience? I mean if they are both effective, and especially if I don't need a rock solid fetch, is there any reason to choose NR over PR?

  2. #2
    Senior Member John Robinson's Avatar
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    Someone else can correct me on this as I personally haven't used one, but it is my understanding, despite how it looks, a prong collar is more humane than the more common choke collar.

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    Quote Originally Posted by John Robinson View Post
    Someone else can correct me on this as I personally haven't used one, but it is my understanding, despite how it looks, a prong collar is more humane than the more common choke collar.
    I don't doubt that. The prong collar certainly does look like some sort of medieval torture device. She even had us super glue the rubber tips on the it, other than one link to get it on and off, so it's not going to be digging in to him. I mean I'm leaning more and more towards this being humane and an effective training method, it is just counter to what I've been led to believe by others. And I'm trying to get a sense of the relative merits of PR vs NR from someone who isn't too biased (i.e. a professional trainer trying to get my money).

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    Senior Member Pals's Avatar
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    Read this:

    http://www.retrievertraining.net/for...cience-10-FAQs


    Sometimes the paste and copy buttons get me....

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    Senior Member John Robinson's Avatar
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    Frybasket, your post comes on the heels of a rather heated debate between PR and conventional retriever training methods for field trials and hunt test. In your case, just wanting a nice, obedient dog for around the house and to do obedience, I suggest you get with a good obedience trainer. There are a few, Janice Gunn is one who frequent this site. Maybe you could edit the thread title with obedience training, I'm afraid people are shying away from the thread due to the huge discussion and debate we just got over.

    John
    Last edited by John Robinson; 11-05-2012 at 01:50 PM.

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    Senior Member BonMallari's Avatar
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    which method are you better with ? Have you used one method before and found success with it ?

    the program is only as good as the user and its implimentation
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    Quote Originally Posted by lanse brown View Post
    A few things that I learned still ring true. "Lanse when you get a gift, say thank you and walk away. When you get a screwing walk away. You are going to get a lot more screwings than gifts"

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pals View Post
    Sometimes the paste and copy buttons get me....
    LOL Ok....I was gonna say, pretty amusing stuff in there but not exactly relevant

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    Quote Originally Posted by John Robinson View Post
    Frybasket, your post comes on the heels of a rather heated debate between PR and conventional retriever training for field trials and hunt test. In your case, just wanting a nice, obedient dog for around the house and to do obedience, I suggest you get with a good obedience trainer. There are a few, Janice Gunn is one who frequent this site. Maybe you could edit the thread title with obedience training, I'm afraid people are shying away from the thread due to the huge discussion and debate we just got over.

    John
    Thanks, I was afraid of that. Don't want to start any arguments just looking for advice. If someone wants to give their honest opinion on the subject without fear of backlash, please feel free to PM me.

    Quote Originally Posted by BonMallari View Post
    which method are you better with ? Have you used one method before and found success with it ?

    the program is only as good as the user and its implimentation
    I agree with this. My first retriever was well-trained when we got him, so I really didn't have to do much. Basically, just PR to reinforce what he already knew. I took him hiking and backpacking in the Colorado Rockies and never had much of an issue, though I did keep him leashed. Unfortunately we had to put him down recently. My wife isn't much of an outdoorswomen, so I want another partner in crime. It would be nice to let him off leash on some excursions, I was just never confident enough in my old guys recall to let him go too far. So basically I have no expertise in either method, though I have done more reading and research on PR.
    Last edited by Frybasket; 11-05-2012 at 02:04 PM.

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    Senior Member Billie's Avatar
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    If you are working with an OB trainer- has that person trained toward the same goal as yours?( competitive obedience?), If so and she has been successful with it-and you are happy with the attitudes of the dogs that she has worked with-then you are probably on the right page with her protocols.
    Training tools( prong collars,chain collars, e-collars OR clickers- treats,etc......) are only as useful and effective as the person utilizing them. Done properly there is nothing inhumane with this type of training.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Billie View Post
    If you are working with an OB trainer- has that person trained toward the same goal as yours?( competitive obedience?), If so and she has been successful with it-and you are happy with the attitudes of the dogs that she has worked with-then you are probably on the right page with her protocols.
    Training tools( prong collars,chain collars, e-collars OR clickers- treats,etc......) are only as useful and effective as the person utilizing them. Done properly there is nothing inhumane with this type of training.
    Yes, the trainer we are working with at the moment is all about competitive obedience. I don't even think she offers retriever training specifically for hunting. We are doing one on one sessions to start, and then we can move on to basic ob up to competitive level if we wish with her. We are just trying to decide now if we continue down this route or switch to someone else that uses primarily PR/clicker training. I guess this confirms what I'm thinking: when used properly, these tools are not necessarily inhumane.

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