The RetrieverTraining.Net Forums The Retriever Academy
Total Retriever Training with Mike Lardy
Hawkeye Media Gunners Up Tritronics Outdoor Media
Page 3 of 3 FirstFirst 123
Results 21 to 30 of 30

Thread: Positive or Negavite based training for 6-month retriever

  1. #21
    Senior Member Grasshopper's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    North Carolina
    Posts
    613

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Frybasket View Post
    I guess this confirms what I'm thinking: when used properly, these tools are not necessarily inhumane.
    Tools are just that, tools. They are only as effective or ineffective or humane or inhumane as the human using them.

    Kathryn
    Never say never . . . never say always . . . know when to say when.

  2. #22
    Senior Member Mary Lynn Metras's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    Watford, ONT
    Posts
    3,271

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Chris Videtto View Post
    Do you think Fenton would come back for a treat???

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3GRSbr0EYYU
    NO he looks like he is having fun at his owners expense!!!
    Last edited by Mary Lynn Metras; 11-06-2012 at 05:11 PM.
    HRCH Scaupgetters Tarnation QAA
    HR Blackie 2 CGN, WCI
    Metras's Hashtag Mickey


    "Knowing how important right timing is in accomplishing right actions"
    Uncle Ray

  3. #23
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    Phoenix MD
    Posts
    532

    Default

    Are you willing to suspend your own assumptions in order to learn about what you are looking for?
    Bert Rodgers

  4. #24
    Junior Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Posts
    8

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by rbr View Post
    Are you willing to suspend your own assumptions in order to learn about what you are looking for?
    Sure, after all they are mainly assumptions at this point.

  5. #25
    Senior Member Steve Shaver's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    Cornish Utah
    Posts
    1,374

    Default

    Positive or negative? hmmmmmm........ BOTH!!!!!!!!!! Makes things black and white. Good dog Bad dog. It's just that simple

  6. #26
    Senior Member PalouseDogs's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Location
    Pullman, WA
    Posts
    275

    Default

    Forgive me if I'm telling you something you already know, but I think you are confusing "pet" obedience with competition "obedience."

    "Pet obedience", aka good manners or small-o obedience, is what most people mean when they say "obedience." They want a dog that acts civilized in public, plus very reliable at a few crucial commands, notably Come and Stay.

    Competition "obedience" (sometimes called capital-O or cap-O obedience) is actually more like doggie dressage or a doggie performance than what most people would call "obedience". An obedience trial consists of highly stylized routines that demand (at the higher levels) the dog learn some fairly complicated tasks and perform them with excruciating attention to detail. It has about as much relation to pet obedience as modern field trials have with hunting. Most (not all!) dogs that make it to the higher levels of competition obedience are well-mannered, if only because they spend a whole lot of time traveling, training with other dogs and people, etc. On the other hand, there are many, many extremely well-mannered dogs that would not be able to get an obedience title.

    From your posts, it sounds like a reliable recall under all circumstances is extremely important to you (as it should be for all dogs). Honestly, I think an e-collar is just about the most effective way to get a reliable recall in the face of overwhelming temptation, such as a running deer or a squirrel. If you choose that route, be sure you know how to teach it correctly. You can't just go out in an open field and zap the dog and expect him to know how to respond. He's as likely to run away in panic as he is to come to you if you don't teach him, first. Also, note that, if you're on a hike and the dog is out of sight, you'll have to rely on prior training. It's not a good idea to zap a dog you can't see. He might be headed your way or somehow trapped, etc.

    If you want to do trial obedience, you will be using a whole lot of positive reinforcement. Unlike hunt training (where the retrieve itself is a powerful reward), there is virtually nothing intrinsically rewarding to the dog about heeling in a circle whilst paying rapt attention to every nuance of a handler's movement. You will have to make it rewarding. Most high level, successful obedience trainers use a ton of positive reinforcement (usually treats) with very judicious and careful applications of gentle compulsion. In cap-O Obedience, there are a million ways for the dog to do an exercise wrong and only one way to do it right. The dog will get very discouraged, very fast, if you only correct for all the wrong responses.

    There are many good books and videos about competition obedience. You could start with Janice Gunn's videos, Adele Yunck's and Judy Byron's "Competitive Obedience: a Balancing Act", and Diane Baumann's "Beyond Basic Obedience." Also, go to obedience trials, watch the UD and CDX classes and ask the handlers whose dogs do great work who they train with in your area.
    Kelly Cassidy (person)

    HR Maple Cassidy CDX JH RE (golden retriever)
    Alder Cassidy CDX RE (standard poodle chipmunk chaser)
    plus whacked-out weird Burka (elderly mix-breed rescue girl)

  7. #27
    Junior Member jleve206's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2012
    Location
    Milwaukee, Wisconsin
    Posts
    21

    Default

    I am not a professional by any means but I really like to use both types of learning. Treats and play when things go right but there are also times when I need to correct my dogs with an e collar. I like the e collar because I took a long time to condition them to the collar before I ever turned it on. I had a few behavioral problems that with one or two corrections with the collar and they do not exist anymore. I also treat the sh-- out of my dogs when I am training and they are doing what I want them to do. As long as you do not abuse your corrections and you feel that what you are doing to the dog is fair for the action, you will probably not have any major issues. Treat your dogs with respect and care and they will trust you with their lives.

  8. #28
    Senior Member rmilner's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Posts
    343

    Default

    Most folks have a fairly incomplete view of what positive gundog training is. I have trained a good number of gundogs with traditional compulsion methods and fair number of gundogs with positive methods. Here is a synopsis of positive gundog training. At the bottom is a table comparing traditional compulsion training and positive training for gundogs.

    http://www.duckhillkennels.com/dogs/positivegundogs.php
    Robert Milner
    www.DuckhillKennels.com


    "When he stood up to speak, battalions of words issued forth from his mouth and scoured the countryside in search of an idea, and when they found one, they swiftly and thoroughly beat it to death." ---- -Anonymous

  9. #29
    Senior Member kcrumpy9's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Location
    Columbus, OH
    Posts
    194

    Default

    Like stated before it all depends on your goals and what you feel most comfortable. You can train your dog with with corrections without having to use aversive measures. Most PR trainer go this route (they say PR bc it's easier to explain). You can also have your dog reliable to your commands using PR. My 8 month Curly is very reliable to come and I haven't begun any collar conditioning.

    As for NR or the use of aversive corrections it definitely can make the training go faster but it's also easier to mess up if you're a novice. Remember before you can expect your dog to do something on a collar you have to show them what you want.

    As for the Prong or choker debate. Prong collars are a lot safer. Chokers are exactly that they choke your dog. The loop can go all the way down to inches. While the prong collar looks like a mid-evil torture device it evenly distributes the pressure around the dogs neck and it can only go as small as the inner prongs.

    The choice is yours but if you can't use it in the ring then why train to it. (Retriever training is a lot different since dogs can be hundreds of yards away). It sounds like I'm biased towards PR but I feel as if you know about the NR side of training.

  10. #30
    Senior Member JustinS's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    Clear Lake, IA
    Posts
    1,053

    Default

    Now I have not read all the posts but I have skimmed over the majority of them so I apologize if I reiterate something someone has already posted, but I have been a firm believer that a regular choke chain was the best - most humane way to teach a dog how to heel and sit on command with additonal treats and fun bumpers to keep their spirits up - that being said I now have a 6 month old pup who taught me differently. I was at wits end and I kept getting told to buy a prong collar and finally did. Now I dont know what it was, It may have been the repeated walks for a couple of months plus the collar but what I do know is yesterday with only the choke chain he was not going to heel today I walked him twice with the prong collar and with in a few short twitches of my wrist he was walking at my side and did it like he had been doing it all along. during the walk he was rewarded with treats when he sat and then afterward we did some sit then here work with treats and then some fun bumpers he is happy as he was yesterday and being more obedient

    take it for what it is worth - I was like you and not really sure about the prong collar and like you I like the results it is giving - the collar required much few corrections to get the desired result with much less torque on my back from him pulling - ie more humane

    I hope this helps, I am not a competitive obedience trainer by any means but do require an obedient dog, but good luck and I hope all works out for you.
    Justin E Schneider

    Xtreme's 30 Rounds N' 1 Full Maggie SH
    Foundation's One Up the Sleeve


    "Money will buy you a pretty good dog, but it won't buy the wag of his tail." -- Josh Billings

    Some peoples stiffest competition is themselves.--MooseGooser

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •