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Head swinging on blinds

5K views 18 replies 10 participants last post by  John Robinson 
#1 ·
I tried sending Evan a private message but this site wouldn't let me because I have not made ten posts yet. My question is does anyone have any good solutions/ideas on getting a dog to keep from moving their head like Stevie Wonder playing a piano when I am trying to line my dog up on a blind. I just brought my dog home from a Pro. I have tried saying no when she looks other than where I have her body lined up and my hand above her head in line with the blind and I say good when she looks where I want her too and then I send her with " BACK". When I have a single (school) blind she does good but when I add multiples for a pattern blind (125 to 225 yds distance to each and over 75yds apart) is when she has the problems. I have not used any collar corrections. If she starts out to the wrong blind I recall her and start over and we do this until she goes where I want her to. Any advice would be greatly appreciated. My dog is 3 1/2 yrs old and has competed in the Qual a 16 times and has received a jam once last fall. I would like to try to run my dog myself next year myself so that I can gain some experience in competing in a trial.Thank you for reading this and for any help that you can give me.
 
#2 ·
Tom,
Have you called your Pro and asked for advice? If not, that be my first suggestion. He knows her the best, knows what recalling her may do, and may give you ideas of how to smooth out the transition from him to you. I just got my dog back and its taken us some time for him to get his confidence in me. My pro been great and perhaps your's will too.
 
#3 · (Edited)
What you are probably seeing is called "bugging". The correction is as soon as the bugging starts, take a step forward and say "heel" and nick him with the ecollar.

My concern is that this shouldn't be showing up in a dog this age with Q level experience. Bugging is typically something that is experienced in a dog just starting. So the best suggestion is to talk to your pro.

Hope this helps.

P.S. To contact Evan you might be better to send him an email. His address is on his website.
 
#4 ·
Talk to your pro, absolute #1 advice first and foremost. The pro will know your dog and her training. If you can get to the trainer to take a few lessons, so much the better, but if pro is too far, call and discuss. It's awesome you want to start running your dog yourself, you will have such a blast and so much fun, but to be fair to the dog, you need to learn how the pro trains and handles her, to make the transition easiest for both of you, even if you opt change things as you progress.
 
#5 ·
I agree...I think this is a handler/dog disconnect. If you didn't get the Pro to teach you how he works the dog, you may be relaying something completely else. Something like putting your hand down like crosshairs and thinking you are aiming the dog...(just an example, but it a common misconception)
 
#6 ·
Moving up 10 yards on each blind to run from three separate spots might solve the problem short term so you can re-enforce the correct behavior. Move back incrementally once you get it going right. Have your pro watch you run them and see where the disconnect is in your communication also. A phone call won't do. You need him/her behind you at the line critiquing.
 
#7 ·
Thanks everyone for your input. I have talked to my Pro before on this subject. I don't want to say anything bad about him or his traing techniques, I would like other peoples input too on this subject. I don't mind creative critisism when training but I dislike someone cursing at me when I ask questions.
 
#8 ·
Thanks everyone for your input. I have talked to my Pro before on this subject. I don't want to say anything bad about him or his traing techniques, I would like other peoples input too on this subject. I don't mind creative critisism when training but I dislike someone cursing at me when I ask questions.
You should throw birds for some then...LOL
 
#9 ·
I have had a similar situation with a dog I have.I inherited some things when I got her at 20 months old. Really had to build confidence.Built up to Qual level cheating singles, then multiples.Got her SH and then put her with a pro who got 3 qual jams with her when she had her for 7 months. I brought her back and with me she still had some of the old issues from before I got her. Wagon wheels helped. Walking with her at my side when putting the bumpers out on pattern blinds really gave her more confidence.Watching the Farmer/Ayecock Trouble Shooting really put things in perspective on no gos and bugging.Don't give up. Pressure is not the answer with this situation.Sometimes going back to basics and building blocks can make a difference.Another thing that helped is when I stopped putting my hand down on blinds. Line em up and let them know the line by where the head and body are directed.Give the cue to lock in and ler her go.
Hope she gets blue for you.
 
#10 ·
Have you just tried to send the dog regardless where it is looking and handle as need be? Not correcting right away for a poor initial line, but just kick the dog off and as long as the go forward, handle (calmly and without correction), don't pay it any mind...the dog may have zero confidence in you and is trying to avoid doing the work, but if you kick the dog off regardless of where it is looking he will eventually realize it does no good to look around...the longer you futz at the line to try and get the dog to look where you want the more you will make it nervous and then things unravel very quickly. Put your hand in, try and get them to look out where you want them to, but don't futz for ever, then kick them off...
 
#11 ·
Maybe this is too elementary but. The hand is not used to line up the dog. You do that with your feet by shifting one way or the other and maybe tapping your leg. Putting the hand down is just like saying, yep thats right. It is just a confirmation that he is looking in the right direction.
 
#12 ·
I don't know what level of experience you have. Do you have a video of you and your dog working on multiple blinds and the head swinging?

Failing that I would suggest you work on a wagon wheel drill until you two get on the same team.

Hope this helps.
 
#13 · (Edited)
What Lainee said "...the dog may have zero confidence in you and is trying to avoid doing the work, but if you kick the dog off regardless of where it is looking he will eventually realize it does no good to look around...the longer you futz at the line to try and get the dog to look where you want the more you will make it nervous and then things unravel very quickly. Put your hand in, try and get them to look out where you want them to, but don't futz for ever, then kick them off... "
I can hear Patti now saying the same thing. and also that I am harder to train than the dog. :)
 
#14 ·
There are 3 factors involved: the dog, you and the 2 of you together.
The dog: Was the dog taught to heel(body,head and eyes) and line properly? Did the dog exhibit the same lack of focus/confidence with the pro?
You: Were you taught how to heel, line and send this dog? Is your lack of confidence or hesitancy confusing the dog?

You may want get the 2 of you on the same page with some yard lining drills and then progress to some very short blinds.

JMO


Tim
 
#16 · (Edited)
Yes I have went ahead a sent my dog even though she headed for a different blind than what I was sending her for. I stop her with the whistle and then cast her to where I want her to go. Sometimes this works great other times she doesn't take the cast and still heads for the blind that she wants to get. When she does this I recall her all of the way back to me and we start over (without any correction). After a time or two she starts to put things together and I get her to take casts where I want her to go. I have taken her pheasant hunting the past two weekends and she took casts to downed birds very good most of the time. My trainer told me that her problem is that she is a 3 1/2 yr old with a puppy brain. He hasn't qualified a dog in a couple of years now. He says that its because of lack of good dogs and not the trainer.
 
#17 · (Edited)
Darrin, I have a 7 yr old male that I have run in hunt tests and I can handle my male to blinds without any problems. My male hasn't been with a trainer in three years and I can run him on blinds and he locks on to where ever I point him. I use the que good when he looks where I am pointing him and he never veers of in any other direction. My male was a pleasure to train and run and he is the best hunting dog that I have ever been around. My male is very mild mannered and and was that way as a puppy. I had to quit running my male in any tests after he was diagnosed with squimis cell carcinoma in his lower jaw last Summer. My vet had to remove a portion of my males lower jaw (both bottom front fangs and the small teeth between them) to give my dog a chance at a longer life. It ripped my heart out to hear the word cancer as I lost a sister just a few years ago (44 yrs old) to cancer and the emotional pain that it caused. My vet said that my dog would adapt better than I would and it was true, my male loves to retrieve his Dokken ducks since they are soft and don't hurt his mouth plus he still loves to hunt and has no major problem picking up wounded birds, just takes a little while for him to get the right hold on the bird and he happily brings it to me. I take my male out and run blinds with him using the Dokken ducks almost every day here on the farm where I run my female. My female is a hyper girl and was this way as a puppy and hasn't changed a bit with age. Both of my labs are both AKC certified companion dogs and my male passed the International Therapy Dog test (TDI). I am hoping to do the same with my female after she gets QAA so she can go to hospitals and nursing homes some day to visit the clients (patients). Thanks again everyone for your input its greatly appreciated.
 
#18 · (Edited)
Tom based on your description in post 16 you're missing the point of pattern blinds as it has been taught to me, which is building confidence and momentum in a young dog coming off the T. Tim's advice is very good (as always), but like I mentioned earlier you probably ought to move up, separate your lines and simplify the drill for the dog.

We can't see the behavior but either way, whether it's head swinging from destination to destination, or generally bugging (if I don't look I don't have to go), the mechanics of a solution are pretty consistent, move up, simplify and use the drill for what it's designed for, building momentum and confidence in the dog.

You can't put this (or anything else) on the dog or the training/trainer, you have to think through how to get the behavior you're looking for. That's all that really matters. Causes are good for short cutting to the right solution but you have to be in problem solving mode at all times here. Right now you have a problem, so how do you fix it? What you're doing doesn't seem to be working, so time for something different. Simplification is usually the next step.

I'm sure others with more accomplishments than me have suggestions, this is just how I was taught.

Good luck with it.
 
#19 ·
A follow up on Lainee and Darrin, set up a field with multiple pattern blinds, maybe four or five at various distances. Once the dog has learned their location run from different angles. With a "buggy" dog walk up to the line in line with the blind you want to run, so the dog is already facing the right direction, sit the dog, say "dead bird" and send. Do it rather quickly, don't take a lot of time trying to fine tune the line, just send. The thing you are working on is momentum, even if it's the wrong direction, you want the dog launching off line with "go". Depending on how your pattern blinds are placed, the dog if going in a different direction might be generally heading for another of the pattern blinds, if so run him to that blind. We want two things here, 1) leaving the blind with good momentum and 2) him being rewarded by getting to the blind. You can also use birds instead of bumpers to make the reward richer.

John
 
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