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Thread: 2 live birds per entry?

  1. #41
    Senior Member MikeBoley's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pals View Post
    Seriously Mike? You are comparing FCs to a junior? Dogs trained to amazing levels to dogs barely FF?

    what I was conveying Nancy, is that at the very top of the Sport we use the birds in a very conservation minded manor. I have seen hunt test clubs dispatch many more birds than necessary when good previously used birds were available. Lets be respectful of the animals giving their life for our sport and dispatch as few as possible. After all our dogs are the ultimate conservation tool.
    Maybe some of those barely FF dogs need to wait a bit before entering a test.
    'I make my practices real hard because if a player is a quitter, I want him to quit in practice, not in a game.' - Bear Bryant / Alabama

  2. #42
    Senior Member Ken Bora's Avatar
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    While your respect for the life of a duck is admirable, does it carry over to the corps of the duck as well? Does it respect this fine animal tossing it until the meat comes from the bone? Does it respect the horse fly? Choosing a spot to lay its eggs, it’s next generation of maggots. Only to be tossed from a winger and then covered with dog slobber and run cross a meadow!
    "So what is big is not always the Trout nor the Deer but the chance, the being there. And what is full is not necessarily the creel nor the freezer, but the memory." ~ Aldo Leopold

    "The Greatest Obstacle to Discovery is not Ignorance -- It is the Illusion of Knowledge" ~ Daniel Boorstin

  3. #43
    Senior Member MikeBoley's Avatar
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    Ken, the respect goes to the prudent use of a resource. While not all used birds are equal in quality I dont believe that a trial or a test needs to use more live birds than necessary. I know of the condition of used birds Nancy was mentioning. Having judged for same club. Birds were excellent. Those fresh thawed birds will last longer than a fresh dispatched bird on a warm day. You learn this when you train in the Texas heat.
    'I make my practices real hard because if a player is a quitter, I want him to quit in practice, not in a game.' - Bear Bryant / Alabama

  4. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thomas D View Post
    I agree with all you have said. Expense continues to be the key issue. I would gladly forgo the tailgate for better birds. I think that handlers should get "reasonable" birds under the conditions present in that Hunt Test. To start out the first series with the memory or go bird thawed pieces of mush is unreasonable in my opinion. Furthermore, to expect JH dogs to pick up that same thawed duck is inexcuseable.
    These are just some of the rumors I have heard and was wondering how widespread it was.
    That's really big of you Tom to give up the tailgate. How about joining a club, working a HT and find out how much the club members work so you can sit in the gallery, go to the tailgate and bitch. Then you wouldn't have to worry about rumors, you would know first hand....

  5. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by SamLab1 View Post
    That's really big of you Tom to give up the tailgate. How about joining a club, working a HT and find out how much the club members work so you can sit in the gallery, go to the tailgate and bitch. Then you wouldn't have to worry about rumors, you would know first hand....
    Tom does give his time to clubs he's not run his dogs when he wanted to in order to help out a club by judging
    HRCH Dallys Wild Willow SH Born 11-06-97 Left Us 1-30-12 will always be in my thoughts RIP Willow

  6. #46
    Senior Member Pals's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MikeBoley View Post
    Ken, the respect goes to the prudent use of a resource. While not all used birds are equal in quality I dont believe that a trial or a test needs to use more live birds than necessary. I know of the condition of used birds Nancy was mentioning. Having judged for same club. Birds were excellent. Those fresh thawed birds will last longer than a fresh dispatched bird on a warm day. You learn this when you train in the Texas heat.
    No Mike you do not know what happened that day, you were not in my flight, you were not judging with me. Don't you dare assume you know anything about that weekend. If you want to publicly air what was going on--lets have at it. I have nothing but respect for our animals, including the ones we shoot. So please go spin that crap somewhere else. AND I suggest you go back and read the original thread. This is about hunt tests, where it specifically says in the rule book that two FRESH(Live) birds will be provided for each dog. End. Of. Story.
    Last edited by Pals; 11-14-2012 at 10:35 AM.

  7. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pals View Post
    No Mike you do not know what happened that day, you were not in my flight, you were not judging with me. Don't you dare assume you know anything about that weekend. If you want to publicly air what was going on--lets have at it. I have nothing but respect for our animals, including the ones we shoot. So please go spin that crap somewhere else. AND I suggest you go back and read the original thread. This is about hunt tests, where it specifically says in the rule book that two FRESH birds will be provided for each dog. End. Of. Story.
    Actually the rules don't say two "fresh" birds. In fact the rules say nothing about fresh birds. The regulations state that two "live" birds are to be available for use for dogs at all test levels at the discretion of the judges. And if judges determine not to shoot those two birds as flyers per entry, then the judges are left with using the available dead birds for their set-ups.
    David Didier, GA

  8. #48
    Senior Member Ken Bora's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Granddaddy View Post
    Actually the rules don't say two "fresh" birds. In fact the rules say nothing about fresh birds. The regulations state that two "live" birds are to be available for use for dogs at all test levels at the discretion of the judges. And if judges determine not to shoot those two birds as flyers per entry, then the judges are left with using the available dead birds for their set-ups.

    but a club / test committee taking that choice away from the judges...
    taking a fresh kilt bird from a set up to use another day....
    will tend to rub a judge the wrong way,
    so they say
    "So what is big is not always the Trout nor the Deer but the chance, the being there. And what is full is not necessarily the creel nor the freezer, but the memory." ~ Aldo Leopold

    "The Greatest Obstacle to Discovery is not Ignorance -- It is the Illusion of Knowledge" ~ Daniel Boorstin

  9. #49
    Senior Member Pals's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Granddaddy View Post
    Actually the rules don't say two "fresh" birds. In fact the rules say nothing about fresh birds. The regulations state that two "live" birds are to be available for use for dogs at all test levels at the discretion of the judges. And if judges determine not to shoot those two birds as flyers per entry, then the judges are left with using the available dead birds for their set-ups.

    David~ you are right, 2 live birds. And when a club gives you frozen birds from a FT stake 3 weeks earlier, birds that were falling apart, as a judge I want the 2 live birds. We had a flyer station, the guys did a great job. We wanted to use those birds for our next dead bird. We were not allowed to do that, instead we were given the frozen birds. Not only was I not allowed to use the 2 live birds the contestants paid for--my test was stopped twice by a club member and freshly killed birds were taken out of the bag at the dead bird station~in the middle of us trying to run a test. How would you feel Dave?? Or anyone judging? Do you want birds that are blue with skin showing through, rotting as the dogs pick them up or do you want to use the fresh, live birds that you just killed? I know what I saw, I know what I handled, I know the dogs were not thrilled with the birds and I sure wasn't. In all the years I've run and judged, I have never had this happen. And just for the record: some of the frozen ducks were ok, the majority were not. So if my having a fit, getting upset and standing up for the handlers after all that makes me a bad judge or a bitch. So be it.
    Last edited by Pals; 11-14-2012 at 09:42 AM.

  10. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by MikeBoley View Post
    Ken, the respect goes to the prudent use of a resource. While not all used birds are equal in quality I dont believe that a trial or a test needs to use more live birds than necessary. I know of the condition of used birds Nancy was mentioning. Having judged for same club. Birds were excellent. Those fresh thawed birds will last longer than a fresh dispatched bird on a warm day. You learn this when you train in the Texas heat.
    Actually mike, that might be your PERCEPTION but its inaccurate. Frozen and thawed"flesh" decays and breaks down something like 5 times faster than "cooled" or "freshly killed" mammals. If you don"t believe this, you can take it up withthe Feds. They do research on that type of stuff all the time(some of it for tracking serial killers). They have a "body farm" that they do all sorts of research at when it comes to decay.

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