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2 live birds per entry?

17K views 84 replies 30 participants last post by  Happy Gilmore 
#1 ·
What is everyone seeing regarding condition of birds at Hunt Tests? Although AKC requires 2 live birds per entry, I keep hearing that many clubs do not order the required number and use frozen birds from prior tests. A thawed bird on Saturday morning is in real bad shape Sunday afternoon.
 
#4 ·
Neither of the clubs I belong to use frozen birds and have only seen it done once in the past few years here in CO. One of my clubs even "encourages" judges to use 2 flyers for Master level!!!

I guess as costs on different phases of tests go up, clubs are looking for any savings they can - cheap birds are not a good area to cut back IMHO.
 
#6 ·
Rotating birds and discarding the bad ones so that you have decent birds on Sunday is a Hun Test Committee issue. Some clubs are better at then others.

I believe in a thread a year or so ago, a judge posted on here complaining about the HT committe taking all the shot flyers from Saturday and saving them for the upcoming FT trial.

So the answer to you question is, it depends.

Most of the events I attended last year (8), the birds were decent on Sunday.

WRL
 
#33 ·
Rotating birds and discarding the bad ones so that you have decent birds on Sunday is a Hun Test Committee issue. Some clubs are better at then others.

I believe in a thread a year or so ago, a judge posted on here complaining about the HT committe taking all the shot flyers from Saturday and saving them for the upcoming FT trial.

So the answer to you question is, it depends.

Most of the events I attended last year (8), the birds were decent on Sunday.

WRL

You are correct. That would be me. And I took a beating for standing up for my contestants and the rule book. We are talking about hunt tests, with baby dogs and new handlers in the lower levels--so please don't make crappy birds an issue. They have enough issues just trying to get out of the holding blind!! And there are times when weather and other factors just erode bird condition rapidly, as long as everyone has done everything possible to keep the birds from totally going to pot--well then its an issue that becomes another factor when judging, so judge it fairly.

I actually agree very much with John!! :eek:
 
#7 ·
Their are many factors involved when in comes to the end condition of HT shot ducks. I do not think, from what I have seen, that there is any difference in the condition of birds at a Sunday HT now than there was 15 years ago. Some clubs have never done a good job of drying and caring for Saturday birds, some clubs always do a great job.
 
#8 ·
What Gordy said! It also depends on the weather; when the weekend is hot even a club that takes extra steps to take good care of the birds is scrambling by Sunday. You also have to learn after you've put on a few HTs how many birds per entry you'll need. I remember being on the HT committee some years ago with a bunch of other relative novices (back when bird costs were much less than they are today) and ordering the suggested 2 birds per entry. We had what seemed like hundreds of birds left over at the end of the test. Bird costs have risen so much recently I think most clubs are doing a better job of drying off and properly storing their dead birds so they're not rotting/falling apart by the last day.
 
#9 ·
I agree with all you have said. Expense continues to be the key issue. I would gladly forgo the tailgate for better birds. I think that handlers should get "reasonable" birds under the conditions present in that Hunt Test. To start out the first series with the memory or go bird thawed pieces of mush is unreasonable in my opinion. Furthermore, to expect JH dogs to pick up that same thawed duck is inexcuseable.
These are just some of the rumors I have heard and was wondering how widespread it was.
 
#44 ·
That's really big of you Tom to give up the tailgate. How about joining a club, working a HT and find out how much the club members work so you can sit in the gallery, go to the tailgate and bitch. Then you wouldn't have to worry about rumors, you would know first hand....
 
#10 ·
If you order two birds per entry you should have plenty of good birds for Sun. . We always dry our birds on Sat. Evening in our bird trailer hung with two large fans on them and vented. We always have dry birds....but we can't control the heat.....we are considering a air conditioner for the trailer too.
 
#12 ·
In Southern California all the clubs do double junior, double senior and a master as routine. All the clubs shoot a live flyer in the land series and a live flyer in the water series for ALL levels (junior,senior,master) and both days. I am trying to get some of the clubs to shoot a live flyer in all 3 series of master, maybe spring?
The way it is now no dog in junior or senior has to retrieve a duck in the water series that was in the water before it was thrown for that dog. Typically all the birds from Saturday are given away Saturday night except for a few to start senior (blinds) and master 20-30 of the best ducks before any are given away.
Getting gunners to use correct chokes is probably our biggest problem now. Once we explain to gunners blowing ducks apart and shooting the heads off cost the club money they get it though.
 
#31 ·
Getting gunners to use correct chokes is probably our biggest problem now. Once we explain to gunners blowing ducks apart and shooting the heads off cost the club money they get it though.
Have a peek at my business card:

HAVE GUN, WILL TRAVEL


;)
 
#13 ·
I can't say for sure, but I have had the feeling this season that I have seen more events start with thawed frozen birds than in the past. It would make sense, given the cost and the shortage around these parts at any price. I have not noticed that the birds are any worse on Sunday than in the past, so clubs are probably following culling those birds ASAP. I have seen it done in the first series, in fact, so that by the second the birds are pretty nice.
 
#14 ·
It seems to me, clubs that put up a tent for judges to sit under and have the bird dryer under the tent and out of the sun tend to have better birds on sat. afternoon and sunday. I understand that there are somethings that you just cant control so mushy ducks to me is not inexcusable - if your dog is properly FF then they will pick up the bird - they may not like it but they will pick it up and bring it back.
 
#17 ·
We usually shoot our birds before the event, usually cost the club more to keep them alive & feed them. Still we never use them and freeze them fluffy, take them out Fri to thaw & keep cool overnight. As they've been allowed to cool, These bird usually last and stay fluffy longer than the shot flyers. When it's hot, birds that haven't been allowed to cool quickly go to junk, fresh shot or not. So they're mainly frozen birds, but they're very nice fluffy frozen birds. Sat evening birds are collected dried (yes dried and fluffed ;)), bad birds tossed, then they're placed in trailer to hang, and cool. If needed we'll pull out a couple of bags of fluffies from the freezer, and thaw.

Still I don't believe bird quality has anything to do with whether they were frozen or live shot, it's how many times the same bird gets retrieved and how those birds are handled through out the day, if you put a bird steward at each stake to fluff and dry you can keep birds very nice for mulitple retrieves, multiple days. If you keep throwing the same wet carcasses over and over they quickly go bad.
 
#18 ·
I think that the condition of the birds at an AKC licensed event should be of the utmost concern to the registry...........with the blind eye approach to the abuses of the regs relative to the availability of two live birds per entry ,It does not appear to me that it is.


john
 
#22 ·
I think a club that starts out with thawed frozen birds should have to put it in the premium ,and should not have an entry fee that is equal to other clubs that are using freshly shot birds.I have seen these birds hit the ground with a loud thud , and wings still frozen against the body.Entry fees are largely based on bird costs. If the club isn't getting two birds per dog ,and using frozen birds too, that entry fee should be about half the going rate IMO.....Penny pincher regards
 
#24 · (Edited)
Sounds great but there are many other significant expenses that go into the entry fee amount. Maybe you should consider that clubs are considering the bird economics (whatever techniques they choose) when determining the entry fees. And to be in compliance with your desires might have to otherwise raise fees.

Further, I would defy the casual trainer to distinguish between fresh killed, cool birds from those which were fresh frozen dry and are then thawed for use. The act of freezing has little to do with a bird's condition or longevity of use compared to fresh dead birds. In fact I would wager that thawed birds if dried and handled properly will last longer than warm, fresh killed birds on hot days in the south.

And in response to the comment that a club "shoots" its birds the night before, why? There are much quicker, less time consuming, less costly & less destructive means of killing birds than by shooting.
 
#23 ·
There are clubs that only pull in 40 to 55 dogs total. It takes a certain number of dogs to break even. They also keep their entry fee's as low as possible ,usually lower than most clubs. Thawed birds are generally in better shape than a shot flyer because sometimes shot flyers get hit pretty bad. Thawed birds if managed properly don't have a mark on them and are very fluffy. They will last just fine for that day,,and if they don't ,,well you discard the bad one weather they are fresh or thawed.
There isn't championship points involved and I have asked the dogs and they could care less. I am more concerned about crappy flyers and crappy throwers of flyers. . Clubs are trying to stay viable and if using a beautiful looking thawed out bird helps them loose less money then I'm all for it.
 
#25 ·
The HT regs are very clear. Section 2: "A minimum of two live birds per entry must be made available for use at the discretion of the Judges in all test
levels." That's not a "suggestion."

While there is nothing precluding the use of previously frozen birds judges, and handlers, have every right to expect decent birds. Last year as a judge I refused to use the still frozen birds delivered for my Junior test and requested fresh killed birds to supplement the flyers we would be shooting. As a result we had good birds all weekend. I've also run tests when the still cold birds in the first series stank and had - frozen - maggots stuck in the what was left of the feathers. I have, politley, suggested to the club that the practice of using left over training birds is not a good idea. IMO handlers have every right to complain when decent birds are not provided and judges should expect that the club will abide by the guidelines. Judges must also inspect "each bird" and insure that every dog has a decent bird to retrieve whether they started as fresh or recycled.
It's fortunately not a widespread problem in the tests we've run.
 
#26 ·
Math assuming the dogs all pass the first series in junior and senior and the first two series in master
Junior 50 entries = 100 live ducks, 4 retrieves x 50 dogs= 200 retrieves
Senior 50 entries = 100 live ducks, 6 retrieves x 50 dogs = 300 retrieves
Master 50 entries = 100 live ducks, 13 retrieves x 50 dogs= 650 retrieves

junior
Option 1: shoot 1 bird to start test then run test dog, rebird after dog2, 4, 8,16,32 Some birds have been retrieved 6 times by end of 1st series 7 times by end of test if a flyer is shot in both series.
Option 2: kill 50 birds send out to dead station, shoot live flyer at other station. No rebird requireed Each bird retrieved once in first series and 2nd time in second series.
Option 3 Start with 6 frozen/thawed birds rebird at dog 5,10,20,40 Some birds reused 5 times by end of 1st series and 6 by end of test.


Senior
Option 1: Kill 2 birds to start test, rebird at dog 1,2,4,7,11,17,26,39 Some birds used 9 times by end of 1st series, 11 times by end of test.

Option 2: kill 50 at start of test and shoot flyer, rebird at 25 birds used 1-2 times by end of 1st series, used 1-2 more times in second series. birds used 3-4 times by end of test.

Option 3: start with 6 frozen/thawed Shoot flyer, rebird at 3,7,14,24,39 Some birds used 6 times by end of 1st, 8 times by end of second

Option 4: Use 6 frozen/thawed on blinds only, rebird dead station at 1,2,4,8,17,35 Some birds used 7 times in 1st series, Thawed/frozen used 8 times on blinds only.

Master well expect to see birds used a huge number of times.....
 
#28 ·
Nothing in the rules prevents the use of previously frozen birds. Even with 2 birds per dog, there have to be some dead birds to start a test. Rules don't specify how, when or where the dead birds came from. The most common interpretation of the 2 bird rule, relative to AKC events would mean each stake should see 2 flyers (live birds) per event, if your dog is fortunate to finish the event (which in practice rarely happens at most events). The rule has nothing to do with dead birds & where they came from. We all have desires & opinions but clubs must run their events to not only meet the rules but also make sure they can cover incurred expenses within the fees collected. Maybe handlers have an expectation but to say they have "rights" to expect decent birds is to ignore reality. The clubs I know take the steps necessary to provide the best birds possible, both in quality & quantity. But clubs don't raise the birds & sometimes weather & feed costs result in birds that are less than desired. Further, weather & the test set-ups play a significant role in the condition of the available birds over the course of a weekend. Dogs should be trained to p/u birds of all condition (guess someone will complain that crimples are not fair next, notwithstanding the rules) & support clubs to put on the best events they can within the fees they are able to collect.
 
#32 · (Edited)
It's this type of "circumvention of the intent'' mindset that necessitates a more expansive and comprehensive Rule Book..........

It is the intent of the writing that the test simulate as close as possible,a day of hunting in the field, the condition of the birds being intrigal to that end therefore, should be as close as possible to those a dog would encounter retrieving a bird while hunting.... end of story.

john
 
#35 ·
Well even the National started the first series with some previously shot roosters from the set up week. Seems if that is good enough for the best of the best of the Retriever world that a potential Junior Hunter could handle a previously used bird for a setup.
 
#37 ·
Well even the National started the first series with some previously shot roosters from the set up week. Seems if that is good enough for the best of the best of the Retriever world that a potential Junior Hunter could handle a previously used bird for a setup.
That's sad to hear...

There was a time in the history of Field Trials, at least around here, when at the end of each day, the game steward removed and disposed of all the dead birds used for testing that day, and started the next day off by having the guns shoot some fresh birds to get the next days testing started.......



john
 
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