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Thread: Help--bad first e-collar session with "here"

  1. #31
    Senior Member Ken Bora's Avatar
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    From my conversation with Jeremy I do not think there is any quit in him. In fact he may be more motivated to train than ever. As for the hop-scotch, I counseled him to read everything he could get his hands on and take it all with a grain of salt. And telling a new retriever person to just read their dog, is like handing a kindergartener a big ol’ Webster’s complete unabridged when they ask the meaning of a word.
    A person is not quitting when they evolve into training in a different way. An all-positive, lovie, smoochie, click-click trainer is not quitting when they get their first heeling stick and prong collar.
    A Richard Wolters book series fan is not quitting when they start to use some of the more modern books and video.
    A Dodge Truck person is not quitting driving trucks when they finally get their first Ford or Chevy!
    This pup needs obedience. This pup was not ready to learn the task at hand. When you have a bouncy bouncy tigger of a dog and you as a new person do not have the rope skill that some do. You are going to get a situation.
    "So what is big is not always the Trout nor the Deer but the chance, the being there. And what is full is not necessarily the creel nor the freezer, but the memory." ~ Aldo Leopold

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  2. #32
    Senior Member Evan's Avatar
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    I see what you're saying Ken. But his being a quitter wasn't what I was referencing. As I had asked D.L. About 'quitting' the part of training that wasn't going well for me, I'm suggesting he not scrap the training he's doing, but rather work toward doing it better.

    Evan
    "Prepare your dog in such a manner that the work he is normally called upon to do under-whelms him, not overwhelms him." ~ Evan Graham

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  3. #33
    Administrator Chris Atkinson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Evan View Post
    I see what you're saying Ken. But his being a quitter wasn't what I was referencing. As I had asked D.L. About 'quitting' the part of training that wasn't going well for me, I'm suggesting he not scrap the training he's doing, but rather work toward doing it better.

    Evan
    I've spoken live with JNG twice. I got the idea that his dog does not yet have a conditioned response, via "traditional" leash and collar training, to basic obedience commands. I have counseled JNG that there is absolutely nothing to be lost by going through basic obedience training with leash and collar, ensuring the dog dog's responses are crisp, conditioned, and thoroughly understood. I've also counseled JNG that it takes as long as it takes.

    I hope all can agree that if a trainer cannot say "sit" and walk to the end of the leash before calling him to "here", it is not time to think about experimenting with medium 3's or high 5's as the dog jumps and spins and bites at ropes while being commanded "here"!

    If JNG has a simple "heel/sit" session, and his dog is still biting at the leash, I hope we can also agree that this is a good sign that the conditioning to proper responses to basic obedience commands is not yet done. And it is certainly not time for a 2 rope session that may resemble fighting a tarpon at Boca Grande Pass.

    I actually did mention that I'd advise against another 2-rope session, experimenting with correction levels until he is convinced that his obedience is crisp and tight. I believe with JNG's comments about the leash yank to correct the leash bite. He got a reinforcing indicator that basic obedience is not yet ready for the type of collar conditioning done in the program he's seeking to follow.

    I will also comment that in the 2-rope method, I believe the coordination and understanding of the process is critical with the person operating the "around the pole" rope. Many of us do not have the luxury of an experienced assistant to operate that second rope. I personally feel that this 2 rope method is extra complexity that may benefit little in the end. It can, for some, create undue frustration and hassle for a new trainer and his canine student.

    I think it is wise that JNG is choosing to foregoe taping any 2 leash sessions with collar stimulation until he is convinced that his basic obedience is crisp and conditioned.

    I felt obligated to make this public post to try and offset any peer pressure that JNG may feel to go ahead and put the dog through "just one more" session, to get it on tape, before he's convinced (or not) that his obedience is ready to progress. Again, if you're doing basic "heel/sit" walks and the dog is biting at the leash...you have more "heel sit" sessions before you start hurting him with a collar.

    As I told JNG, hitting him with a collar at this point is a bit like burning you or me until we guess Ken Bora's social security number. It's not fair and it's not likely to result in the subject being shocked unraveling the mystery.

    Chris
    "Determining and applying the criteria for when and when not to use correction is the essence of the art of dog training. I make a distinction between a mistake and a lack of effort." - Mike Lardy - Volume I "After Collar Conditioning"

  4. #34
    Senior Member Gun_Dog2002's Avatar
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    Always love these threads. Get with a trainer who can stand and watch with you

    /paul
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  5. #35
    Administrator Chris Atkinson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gun_Dog2002 View Post
    Always love these threads. Get with a trainer who can stand and watch with you

    /paul

    I agree that is absolutely best. That is something that we discussed as well. I got the idea he was going to continue to train alone. If he's training alone, conservative seems safer to me.
    "Determining and applying the criteria for when and when not to use correction is the essence of the art of dog training. I make a distinction between a mistake and a lack of effort." - Mike Lardy - Volume I "After Collar Conditioning"

  6. #36
    Senior Member Gun_Dog2002's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris Atkinson View Post
    I agree that is absolutely best. That is something that we discussed as well. I got the idea he was going to continue to train alone. If he's training alone, conservative seems safer to me.
    Amen brother

    /paul
    Paul Cantrell
    Black Ice Retrievers
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    Too many dogs to list (By some Bitch)

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  7. #37
    Senior Member Mary Lynn Metras's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris Atkinson View Post
    I agree that is absolutely best. That is something that we discussed as well. I got the idea he was going to continue to train alone. If he's training alone, conservative seems safer to me.
    Chris Agree to your previous post. Very well said. I also agree less is better if you are trying train alone. Nothing lost by getting his obedience solid so the dog really understands and he will have less issues as he moves on. Good post!
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