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Help--bad first e-collar session with "here"

9K views 36 replies 15 participants last post by  Mary Lynn Metras 
#1 · (Edited)
Hi--I'm training my first dog (6 mo old) and new to the forum. I've got a ton of questions, and I'm very glad to have found a place with knowledgeable people to ask.

I am using Smartwork, and started formalizing "here" today. The dog did pretty well through the first couple levels of pressure, but then he started refusing to leave my side. Okay, I connected a second rope and looped it around a pole and used it to keep him in place until I was ready to call. Problem was, I couldn't handle two ropes and the remote all at once. Doing so resulted in the dog getting hopelessly tangled in the ropes, me getting tangled in the ropes, and general chaos (pretty much the opposite of useful training). So I changed tactics and removed one of the ropes, using only one rope wrapped around a pole to keep the dog far enough away. I gave the command, giving some friction on the restraint rope, and he came right to me even without a "here" rope to guide him in. Great so far. A couple levels later (3.5 low, and showing a head turn in response to the pressure) using this same technique, when I call "here" instead of coming straight to me like he had every other time, he wandered around confused, head turned sideways, until I could scramble for a piece of the restraint rope on the other side of the pole and tug him to me.
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Now, this dog also has an annoying tendency of bouncing away whenever anyone tries to pet him (then bouncing back to force his head under your hand immediately afterwards), which I've been handling by just turning my back on him whenever he does it. At this point in the session, this annoying habit became suddenly much worse, to the point where providing positive reinforcement for successful reps became very difficult. Also, out of the blue, he started following me and play-nipping the back of my jeans, which he hasn't done for three months. The second time he nipped my jeans I gave him a "no" and a strong nick and it (mostly) stopped that behavior. I re-connected the "here" rope to provide more guidance and things went more or less okay. I didn't go any higher on the pressure and backed him down the levels until we stopped at 1-medium.

While he appeared to understand what we were doing, I never saw the noticeable increase in devotion to task that's supposed to happen during this process.

Edited to add: Some background on the dog. He is a 6 mo. old standard poodle. Very eager to retrieve, very birdy, very high-energy. He has been doing obedience with positive reinforcement since 3 mos. and understands "here", "sit", "down" and "cage" (kennel) very well. He has been wearing an e-collar since 4 mos., which we used correctively to stop a play-nipping problem that was fixing to get him an eviction notice from my wife if not stopped. (Believe me, we tried everything else, and he was incorrigible).

I'm sure I did wrong just about everything that could be done wrong. So, a few questions for anyone willing to share some knowledge with a total newbie:

(1) Did I ruin my dog?
(2) Should I wait a couple of days and re-try this session (figuring out a way to manage all the ropes and the remote by myself in the meantime), or just go to reinforcement?
(3) Should I worry about his sudden reversion to play-nipping?
(4) Was the head-turning a sign of too much pressure?
 
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#4 · (Edited)
Answers to your questions

No you didnt ruin your dog. - Pretty sure
Dont be worried about the nipping - still a pup- dont allow it but - probably dont give a Collar correction for it during this type of drill though
yes wait a few days and act like it never happened that is alot of pressure I usually go every other day and do other yard work in between.
No the head turning was not a sign of too much pressure it is a form of avoidance - During a Seminar he gave he said that the dog is trying to avoid the pressure. - I cant remember exactly what he said but it he gave a clear example of when the setting was too high.



X 2 always use 2 ropes -

Evans CC to here is great I have used it with a few dogs and after a few sessions the dogs dont even think about not coming to you. Remember the higher the setting the longer you praise them once they are by your side give a few minutes and make sure that they know you are where they want to be at. Have your partner pull the rope and you walk with the dog back to the pole. you may have to hold the "here" rope tight so the pup doesnt get tangled up in the other rope going the other way - Ropes can suck during this drill but they are also what makes it so successful. good luck
 
#5 ·
...and, you do not need to pet your dog to give him positive reinforcement. Use your voice to praise him (when he deserves it!) - good long-term habit to get into as it can be used during a variety of situations and does not interupt the training and/or the dog's focus like petting might. Some pats after the training is done for the day is fine of course.
 
#6 ·
Thanks for all the great feedback here and over PM. It's a little painful to be new, but I'm glad for all the guidance and opinions. It's been suggested that some more background on the dog might alter some of the advice I'm getting. So I edited the above to add:

Some background on the dog. He is a 6 mo. old standard poodle. Very eager to retrieve, very birdy, very high-energy. He has been doing obedience with positive reinforcement since 3 mos. and understands "here", "sit", "down" and "cage" (kennel) very well. He has been wearing an e-collar since 4 mos., which we used correctively to stop a play-nipping problem that was fixing to get him an eviction notice from my wife if not stopped. (Believe me, we tried everything else, and he was incorrigible). It has been used intermittently ever since to stop unwanted behaviors, but only after teaching that the dog that the behavior is unwanted using sounds the dog recognizes as verbal disapproval to teach him that the behavior is unwanted, then a progression of mild stimulation + verbal disapproval until we're sure he knows that doing the act will result in stimulation, followed by verbal disapproval + stimulation at a corrective level.

So, I guess I have an additional (fifth) question based on some of the initial feedback I got: has this behavior-corrective use of the collar put the dog on the wrong footing to formalize obedience through use of collar conditioning? If so, opinions on how to get him back on the right foot?
 
#10 ·
Thanks for all the great feedback here and over PM. It's a little painful to be new, but I'm glad for all the guidance and opinions. It's been suggested that some more background on the dog might alter some of the advice I'm getting. So I edited the above to add:

Some background on the dog. He is a 6 mo. old standard poodle. Very eager to retrieve, very birdy, very high-energy. He has been doing obedience with positive reinforcement since 3 mos. and understands "here", "sit", "down" and "cage" (kennel) very well. He has been wearing an e-collar since 4 mos., which we used correctively to stop a play-nipping problem that was fixing to get him an eviction notice from my wife if not stopped. (Believe me, we tried everything else, and he was incorrigible). It has been used intermittently ever since to stop unwanted behaviors, but only after teaching that the dog that the behavior is unwanted using sounds the dog recognizes as verbal disapproval to teach him that the behavior is unwanted, then a progression of mild stimulation + verbal disapproval until we're sure he knows that doing the act will result in stimulation, followed by verbal disapproval + stimulation at a corrective level.

So, I guess I have an additional (fifth) question based on some of the initial feedback I got: has this behavior-corrective use of the collar put the dog on the wrong footing to formalize obedience through use of collar conditioning? If so, opinions on how to get him back on the right foot?
I think you've already done your own version of collar conditioning by using the collar to extinguish undesirable behavior over the past several months. He's likely a bit confused.

I think it may take a bit of time to help pup understand the application of collar stimulation in the context of formalized training exercises. I'd say you read of the head turning is accurate. He's anticipating the stimulation from the collar. Even in the "best" of training situations, the dog at your side does not perform quite like the one in the video doing the same step. You're going to see some variations...because there are some variations.

Be sure to read the dog. If you think he's confused, use your common sense and don't let frustration or anger cloud stuff....easier said than done some times.

Chris
 
#7 ·
JNG,
Welcome to the RTF
Nope you did not ruin your dog.
If you mostly train alone and do not have easy access to a helper, second rope and pole like in the smartplan.
There is another way to CC and all you need is a working collar, 6 foot leash, healing stick, a Dawg and the motivation to get your self out the door and do it.
 
#8 · (Edited)
I may get flamed for this and sorry in advance to Evan Graham, but the way he collar conditions to here in his program is cumbersome and too easy to screw up for a newcomer (in my opinion of course). I think his program is fundamentally sound and would perhaps even recommend it, but I just don't see the necessity of using a continuous burn and a helper to collar condition a dog to here. Do yourself (and your dog) a favor and buy Mike Lardy's ecollar conditioning video to supplement Evan's program.
 
#9 ·
If you haven't already done so, sign up for the Huntingpoodle yahoo group. Introduce yourself, say where you live, and you will probably find some other poodle owner that lives close enough to help you out.
 
#11 ·
Hi--I'm training my first dog (6 mo old) and new to the forum. I've got a ton of questions, and I'm very glad to have found a place with knowledgeable people to ask.

I am using Smartwork, and started formalizing "here" today. The dog did pretty well through the first couple levels of pressure, but then he started refusing to leave my side.....I'm sure I did wrong just about everything that could be done wrong. So, a few questions for anyone willing to share some knowledge with a total newbie:

(1) Did I ruin my dog?
Sorry this is so late. I actually thought I had responded, but don't see it here, so here goes. First, not wanting to leave your side is not the bad thing you may suppose. In fact, it likely means you did something very right. If you've done this process correctly your dog should think being with you is the best thing on earth! Don't let yourself be fooled by a pup overreacting to this new situation. Take advantage of it. When a pup does this it's more important than usual to try to get someone who follows directions well to assist you with the second rope.

As you may have noted in the video, the two-rope method takes into account this type of reaction. That's why we lead the pup out to the same spot each time, and restrain them with the longer rope so they cannot come until called. The shorter rope assures they will do so as commanded. With experience you can manage both readilly, but I understand how clumsy it can feel at first.
(2) Should I wait a couple of days and re-try this session (figuring out a way to manage all the ropes and the remote by myself in the meantime), or just go to reinforcement?
Wait a day or two if that's how long it takes to get someone to help, and make sure they understand what you want. The waiting is not for the dog, specifically. If you have a helper, go right back to it, but take more time before moving up scale with pressure.
(3) Should I worry about his sudden reversion to play-nipping?
Not really. I think it's likely nervousness, and that is fairly common.
(4) Was the head-turning a sign of too much pressure?
It was a sign of the pup acknowledging pressure. In healthcare professions we learn early to use signs and symptoms to diagnose illness and/or injury. As a trainer, you will learn to use signs and symptoms to diagnose problems, as well as progress. So far it looks like he's shown you two distinct signs of acknowledging pressure. That is not, in and of itself, a bad thing. E-collar conditioning is all about pressure conditioning.

How about some video of a session?

Evan
 
#12 ·
Evan, thanks much for the response. I will get some video of our next (third) session.

I tried again tonight, with my wife helping. Things went much, much better with her help, but the dog's maniacal jumping and spinning around every time he finished a rep him still resulted in him getting tangled badly in the ropes four or fives times out of a 20 or so repetitions (on a Tritronics, he went from 1-low all the way through 5-high, max setting, without vocalizing. Only pressure sign was a head turn, which started at 3-med).

He also started biting the rope and refusing to let go of it at the end of every rep. Given the the amount of discomfort he likely experienced getting repeatedly tangled and untangled from the ropes, I understand him getting a little hostile to them. I just can't see any way to stop that from happening, though, without just grabbing him with both arms and restraining him whenever he finishes a rep. Maybe that's what I'll have to do.

I'm still not exactly clear on how to tell how much pressure is "enough". The dog started acknowledging some discomfort at 3-med; his performance started to degrade a little at 4-high; but he was able to tolerate up through 5-high still performing the task requested and without vocalizing.
 
#14 ·
...... but the dog's maniacal jumping and spinning around every time he finished a rep him still resulted in him getting tangled badly in the ropes four or fives times out of a 20 or so repetitions (on a Tritronics, he went from 1-low all the way through 5-high, max setting, without vocalizing. Only pressure sign was a head turn, which started at 3-med).

He also started biting the rope and refusing to let go of it at the end of every rep. Given the the amount of discomfort he likely experienced getting repeatedly tangled and untangled from the ropes, I understand him getting a little hostile to them. I just can't see any way to stop that from happening, though, without just grabbing him with both arms and restraining him whenever he finishes a rep........
the long time RTF'ers will know how much it pains me to type this.....
Ditch the ropes!
and those same know that I have butted heads with Evan afore on the two rope, post, helper thing. As I use the other way. But I know Evan has typed (don't feel like searchin') "Train the dog at your feet"... if Rover is thrashing about he is not learning anything but panic at the disco. Get to work fresh on a new day, work on sit. Sit with a stick tap. then slip in a collar nick for a stick tap.
any way you could give me a phone call? 802-863-1576
 
#15 ·
When I read the OP's last post earlier this morning, it made me physically sick for this dog. Please, someone help, without getting anyone's panties bunched. This poor dog.
 
#16 · (Edited)
Not there, so can't read the pup. But, to me there are many concerning things happening.
Pup is panicking.
Pup is nipping at you and the rope.
Pup is not responding. Pup is clamming.

These are potential red flags. I strongly advise you to get some experienced, hands on help. Before you do any real damage. For your sake, and the pup's.
 
#17 ·
Just to reassure some of those who appear to be getting overly concerned about my dog:
(1) the crazy jumping and spinning is not a sign of panic. It's just a really irritating personality quirk of his. He does it all the time, pressure or no pressure, whenever he's really excited about something. In this setup, it ends up with him getting tangled in ropes 1 out of every 4 or 5 sets.
(2) The getting tangled in ropes is not a sign of panic. He also does that all the time, even with a single rope, because he is so excited to have the rope on (see: crazy jumping and spinning above) because it usually means he gets to go on a field hike or retrieve or both.

Neither of these events are unique to training him with pressure--both happen to him with some regularity. It's just very difficult to train him while these things are happening.

He also did not clam up--he responded to every command, and was enthusiastic about his fun bumpers afterwards.

So cakaiser, only one of the three things you list ("panicking," "nipping," "clamming") is actually occurring--nipping. I would much appreciate your insight on what you believe that nipping signifies.
 
#19 ·
5 high????!!!! I'm sorry, but I agree with the other posters that the leaping and thrashing is panic. Just because he also leaps in play, doesn't mean the same behavior can't also be a sign of panic. I'm on my 3rd standard poodle. All of my poodles have been the "suffer in silence" type. They have all liked to bark at this and that, but they have all clammed up and gotten quiet when under duress. IOW, don't go by the lack of a vocal response as a sign that you aren't ramping it too high. In fact, with Alder (current poodle), a head tilt is the response I get. No yelping.
 
#21 ·
Thank you--this is very helpful. One of the knowledge deficiencies that's hurting me the most right now is not knowing enough about what to look for. re: too much pressure. In the future, I will limit it to 3-med, which is where he starts the head tilt, and go from there.
 
#22 ·
If I was having trouble with a standard poodle I would contact Rich Louter http://www.redhuntingpoodles.com/. He is a knowledgable trainer doing well with your chosen breed.

It is next to impossible to properly address your issue via the internet. Dog training is a very in the moment, dynamic process, where reading the dog is of the utmost importance. You are having a very uncommon issue with a breed not often trained for retrieving. To complicate the mix, you are a first time trainer and don't have a base of knowledge.

If it were my dog, I would let a retriever trainer evaluate the progress and critique the reaction. Hopefully there is a club in your area with someone you could ask for help. No one trains a dog in a vaccuum, everyone with a well trained dog has been helped at some point. Most are happy to return the favor.
 
#25 ·
Since so many people have been so generous with their time and expertise, I wanted to say thanks, and to post a quick update. I've put the transmitter in the drawer for the time being and I've been taking Watson on leashed obedience walks for the last few nights. He's been doing the same things that got him tangled in the ropes so hopelessly--constant bounding, spinning, backwards-walking-facing-me-no-matter what, biting the leash--pretty incorrigibly.

Tonight, we had a breakthrough.

He was doing his backwards-spin-twist-bound routine, but tonight when he bit the leash he got just a teensy bit of the end of the choke chain in his mouth, so when I jerked it out of his mouth it REALLY got his attention. And just like that, everything changed. From that moment on, we had a beautiful walk. He didn't heel perfectly, nor would I have expected him to, but he did walk in the forward-facing direction, at my side, and he responded nicely to collar guidance when asked to 'heel.'

Hopefully we can keep building on this.
 
#27 ·
He was doing his backwards-spin-twist-bound routine, but tonight when he bit the leash he got just a teensy bit of the end of the choke chain in his mouth, so when I jerked it out of his mouth it REALLY got his attention. And just like that, everything changed. From that moment on, we had a beautiful walk. He didn't heel perfectly, nor would I have expected him to, but he did walk in the forward-facing direction, at my side, and he responded nicely to collar guidance when asked to 'heel.'

Hopefully we can keep building on this.
That sounds like a positive step. I haven't received a response to my last email from you. That would be helpful. So would any video of training/interaction with you and your dog - whatever you're doing. I've offered contact of any kind to help you with this. My advice would be to take advantage of that.

Without seeing the dog it's still largely guess work. Is video not possible?

Evan
 
#28 · (Edited)
To add to my previous statement, I don't think your solution lies in playing hopscotch with methods, but rather in working through and improving on the way you're applying the proven method you began with. When I was a brand new, "green-as-a-gourd" trainer, I asked the late D.L. Walters about a training issue I had. I asked if perhaps I should just stop for a while and do something else. His reply is relevant here. He said, "You can do that, and your dog may seem happier. But your problem will still be there waiting for you when you come back. The best way to solve a training problem is to improve your training, and work through it, not quit."

Let's work a little harder to see what's really wrong here. "See" is the operative word at this point. I would caution also against launching into the formalizing of your training if the teaching was incomplete. Did you thoroughly teach the fundamental commands; Here, Heel, Sit? Your dog knows what to do, but is perhaps just acting out instead?

Evan
 
#29 ·
Evan,

Your advice is very much appreciated. I just sent you a responsive pm about the video issue, and apologize for not seeing to that sooner.

I guess a short answer is that I'm pretty sure the dog understands the commands and that the teaching is complete, but what I'm "pretty sure" of isn't worth much given my lack of experience and knowledge. So it seems to make sense to take a little more time on the teaching to make absolutely sure, instead of just pretty sure.

I'll send video when I get that capability back.

--Jeremy
 
#30 ·
Evan,

Your advice is very much appreciated. I just sent you a responsive pm about the video issue, and apologize for not seeing to that sooner.

I guess a short answer is that I'm pretty sure the dog understands the commands and that the teaching is complete, but what I'm "pretty sure" of isn't worth much given my lack of experience and knowledge. So it seems to make sense to take a little more time on the teaching to make absolutely sure, instead of just pretty sure.

I'll send video when I get that capability back.

--Jeremy
Excellent idea. Stay in touch - even day to day if you like.

Evan
 
#31 ·
From my conversation with Jeremy I do not think there is any quit in him. In fact he may be more motivated to train than ever. As for the hop-scotch, I counseled him to read everything he could get his hands on and take it all with a grain of salt. And telling a new retriever person to just read their dog, is like handing a kindergartener a big ol’ Webster’s complete unabridged when they ask the meaning of a word.
A person is not quitting when they evolve into training in a different way. An all-positive, lovie, smoochie, click-click trainer is not quitting when they get their first heeling stick and prong collar.
A Richard Wolters book series fan is not quitting when they start to use some of the more modern books and video.
A Dodge Truck person is not quitting driving trucks when they finally get their first Ford or Chevy!
This pup needs obedience. This pup was not ready to learn the task at hand. When you have a bouncy bouncy tigger of a dog and you as a new person do not have the rope skill that some do. You are going to get a situation.
 
#32 ·
I see what you're saying Ken. But his being a quitter wasn't what I was referencing. As I had asked D.L. About 'quitting' the part of training that wasn't going well for me, I'm suggesting he not scrap the training he's doing, but rather work toward doing it better.

Evan
 
#33 ·
I've spoken live with JNG twice. I got the idea that his dog does not yet have a conditioned response, via "traditional" leash and collar training, to basic obedience commands. I have counseled JNG that there is absolutely nothing to be lost by going through basic obedience training with leash and collar, ensuring the dog dog's responses are crisp, conditioned, and thoroughly understood. I've also counseled JNG that it takes as long as it takes.

I hope all can agree that if a trainer cannot say "sit" and walk to the end of the leash before calling him to "here", it is not time to think about experimenting with medium 3's or high 5's as the dog jumps and spins and bites at ropes while being commanded "here"!

If JNG has a simple "heel/sit" session, and his dog is still biting at the leash, I hope we can also agree that this is a good sign that the conditioning to proper responses to basic obedience commands is not yet done. And it is certainly not time for a 2 rope session that may resemble fighting a tarpon at Boca Grande Pass.

I actually did mention that I'd advise against another 2-rope session, experimenting with correction levels until he is convinced that his obedience is crisp and tight. I believe with JNG's comments about the leash yank to correct the leash bite. He got a reinforcing indicator that basic obedience is not yet ready for the type of collar conditioning done in the program he's seeking to follow.

I will also comment that in the 2-rope method, I believe the coordination and understanding of the process is critical with the person operating the "around the pole" rope. Many of us do not have the luxury of an experienced assistant to operate that second rope. I personally feel that this 2 rope method is extra complexity that may benefit little in the end. It can, for some, create undue frustration and hassle for a new trainer and his canine student.

I think it is wise that JNG is choosing to foregoe taping any 2 leash sessions with collar stimulation until he is convinced that his basic obedience is crisp and conditioned.

I felt obligated to make this public post to try and offset any peer pressure that JNG may feel to go ahead and put the dog through "just one more" session, to get it on tape, before he's convinced (or not) that his obedience is ready to progress. Again, if you're doing basic "heel/sit" walks and the dog is biting at the leash...you have more "heel sit" sessions before you start hurting him with a collar.

As I told JNG, hitting him with a collar at this point is a bit like burning you or me until we guess Ken Bora's social security number. It's not fair and it's not likely to result in the subject being shocked unraveling the mystery.

Chris
 
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