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How far off the line?

4K views 20 replies 15 participants last post by  Mary Lynn Metras 
#1 ·
My dog has a JH title. I am wanting to run seasoned in HRC when I feel she and I am ready. How far off the line is acceptable on a blind? In terms of feet/yards.

Thanks
 
#2 ·
Try to teach yourself and your dog to challenge the blind. Save you alot of trouble later. So stay as close to the line as you can and show the judge you are able to. IMHO
 
#4 ·
Good answers for when your dog is running blinds well.

In the beginning stages let the dog "roll." Get your dog running with confidence, not running and expecting to be stopped. Let it get pretty far offline then stop and cast. Then let the dog carry that cast even when it crosses the "line."
 
#6 · (Edited)
I take it you have viewed a couple Seasoned tests?

I guess the question need to be asked are you running cold blinds? I assume you are or just started

Here is what I did when I started to run blinds with my pup. All his "blinds" were with white bumpers. The T work helped with this also. When I went to lining drills I would not let him get more than 5-6 foot off line. He quickly started to take the line. When I transitioned to cold blinds his lines from the get go are pretty good. I still do or try not to let him get get to far off line.

But to answer your question, that is up to the judges on what they will allow. Work with your pup and get better lines.
I am still pretty new at this game and have allot more to learn.
Again if your blinds are that ugly (I assume they are by your question) Then church them up before you enter. Having your young pup run a nice blind in a test will get you a compliment from the judges.
Good luck
 
#7 ·
I ask the same question several times as I am new to the hunt test game. I do not believe an answer can be given in feet or yards. Many times you will be able to see a coridor that the judges are expecting the dogs to stay in. Stand back and take a look after the instructions many times it is easy to see others not so much.

Some trainers us there index and little fingers with a bent elbow to give them a coridor. Have fun!
 
#8 ·
My dog has a JH title. I am wanting to run seasoned in HRC when I feel she and I am ready. How far off the line is acceptable on a blind? In terms of feet/yards.

Thanks

Everybody has some great points so far. I really like what John Lash wrote.

DO NOT fall into the trap of trying to run your dog to suit what is "acceptable" or "passing" to a set of judges. You will need to maintain balance as you train a handling dog. Like John wrote, your initial goal is to get the dog to confidently run blinds, stopping and taking some generalized casts when commanded. But the goal is lots of go, lots of success, and lots of repetition of those things. Too much stopping and casting can erode confidence.

If you choose to run your dog in an intermediate level hunt test, you should KNOW if he/she is ready or not. If you don't KNOW....then he/she is probably not ready. If you choose to run your dog in a hunt test before you KNOW the dog is ready, that's OK. There's no "right" or "wrong".

Have fun....enjoy your dog.

If you get a chance, and you intend to run a good bit of hunt tests, I'd strongly advise you attend a judges' clinic or seminar. They are of value for any and all folks that run hunt tests, whether you do or don't ever intend to judge.

Chris
 
#9 ·
In order to be as helpful as possible I would compartmentalize my response to your very good question. First, before directly addressing "how far off line" is acceptable, I lend my agreement to the developmental needs of your dog. As you advance from level to level/class to class, your dog deserves a sound education. I strongly urge you to approach this process with the idea of preparing her for the next higher level, so that she is running with competence on finished/master-level work before entering and running seasoned/senior class events. To do as far too many trainer/handlers do - enter as soon as it looks like a dog may be able to do the work at a given level - is to ask them to perform calculus with only basic math skills. Effectively, that means your dog is most apt to be working at the outer edege of her ability during tests, and that is a situation where bad habits are formed in the blink of an eye far too often. By somewhat over-preparing, your dog has not only a better chance of success at the test, but also a better chance of not forming some habit of failure through inadequate skills.

The second part is the focus of your question. Ted Shih has a good thread going on challenging the blind. It's a good read, and will provide some insight that will help with this. Each blind has a theoretical corridor; an allowable amount of space in which to handle. Each judge will see that differently, and judge it differently. But it will usually be determined by the factors in the route, and how earnestly a dog/handler team is trying to negotiate them, rather than cleverly avoid them! Banana lines usually are rewarded by not being called back. How big can you count on that corridor being? There is no set measurement.

Learn to read blinds for the content of their route; the factors that make them challenging. Sometimes it may be no more than a crossing wind. Sometimes there will be more teeth in a blind than the judges realized before turning the field of dogs loose to run it, especially in a stake like seasoned. Carefully prepare your dog to handle accurately, and to do so at increasing distances. Why distance when you know seasoned blinds will be very short? Because it's an advantage you can give your dog. Distance universally erodes control, and exponentially increases the effects of factors. If your dog handles competently on challenging routes at 250 yards, for exmple, how much more competently will he handle on blinds under 100 yards?

Sorry my reply doesn't have a set formula. But as you run more and more, and train more and more, you'll see fewer solutions to training quandaries have set answers. Good luck.

Evan
 
#11 ·
Spend more time training, less time running tests....

/Paul
Sometimes the very best advice is the hardest to take. But this is it.

Evan
 
#14 ·
Thanks Bill. I opened some space!

Evan
 
#13 ·
Challenge the blind, but in seasoned you do have a larger degree of what challenge is. Realistically what the judges want to see in seasoned is you maintaining control and that you and your dog are working together. If you show teamwork and maintain control, even if it's not perfect, even if the line-casts are somewhat ugly, you have a much better chance of succeeding than letting the dog run back basically self-employed until you attempt large casts at the end.

Judges do not want to see a dog line a blind, it tells them nothing about control-tractablity except that a dog can carry a line. They'd much prefer to see that a dog will stop and work with you, they want to see you be proactive and keep your dog out of trouble. To some degree they even want to see you struggle and if you can recover, which is why most season level blinds have intentional pit-falls in them that will draw-tempt your dog somewhere wrong, just so the judges can watch you recover. If you maintained tight control from the beginning, this is much easier. Where-as if you wait to handle, you might have a large struggle before or even if you can get control. The way I look at a seasoned blind is did the handler at least try to challenge the blind, did they show me that the dog will indeed handle when needed or did they just show me a dog can run haphazardly back, making me question whether the dog is capable of stopping on a whistle or willing to take a cast. Visually the second dogs, let the dog run, few whistles, handle only at the end appears better, but to the judges the handler-dog team that has multiple whistles yet attempted to maintain a direct line to the bird, and never let the dog get out of control throughout the blind has the better blind as the dog has illustrated the control and team-work that were actually being tested.
 
#16 ·
Thanks for the replies. To answer a few questions/statements. I have seen Senior dogs in AKC run blinds. Is there a difference in blinds between AKC and HRC? I belong to a club with excellent dogs that I watch all the time on training days (I am most always throwing ducks so I don't always get to see dogs being handled from the handlers perspective). I have been following Evans program with great results, could not be happier. Love to train and completely believe in the statements supporting this rather than testing and not being ready. I believe my dog is doing well and yes we are running some cold blinds. Last year at this time, there was no way she could pass a junior test(holding and dropping issues). By April, she was ready. I have the same feeling this year. She may not be ready now, but by April we hope to be.
 
#17 ·
I have been following Evans program with great results, could not be happier.
That's good to hear. So what point are you at in progression with him?

Evan
 
#19 · (Edited)
Just so everyone understands,
HRC Seasoned blind distance is 60 yrds
don't make the mistake of running short blinds in training
Make sure you have the dog solid on pile work, and the "T"and "TT"

And Swim by

Gooser
 
#20 ·
The mistakes I made running a very talented dog way to early.
there is a bunch of excitement in hrc tests.

make sure the dog is very steady.There will be big swings between the bird stations.Do NOT listen to advice that the dog can reposition. Make sure the dog sits.

have him prepared for long blinds showing good controll.
Run long blinds in training,after you have prepared the dog with necessary pile work, Swim by , ect . Teach the dog to Handel.follow him out on early blinds, and teach the dog to cast.
When you can stay at the line, and confidently run 150 yrd blinds with little corrections, you are ready.
You won't have to sweat that 60 yrd seasoned blind,the dog will prolly come very close to lining it.
The dog will sit at the line and not move. Makes it soooooo much less stressful for you the handler.
Look towards you big picture, instead of the instant gratification of a 3.00 ribbon.

You have a ton of time to run tests. They can be very fun, if you take the care to prepare the dog.
 
#21 ·
The mistakes I made running a very talented dog way to early.
there is a bunch of excitement in hrc tests.

make sure the dog is very steady.There will be big swings between the bird stations.Do NOT listen to advice that the dog can reposition. Make sure the dog sits.

have him prepared for long blinds showing good controll.
Run long blinds in training,after you have prepared the dog with necessary pile work, Swim by , ect . Teach the dog to Handel.follow him out on early blinds, and teach the dog to cast.
When you can stay at the line, and confidently run 150 yrd blinds with little corrections, you are ready.
You won't have to sweat that 60 yrd seasoned blind,the dog will prolly come very close to lining it.
The dog will sit at the line and not move. Makes it soooooo much less stressful for you the handler.
Look towards your big picture, instead of the instant gratification of a 3.00 ribbon.

You have a ton of time to run tests. They can be very fun, if you take the care to prepare the dog.
Like your statement looking at the big picture!!!:)
 
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