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Thread: Oh POTUS regs, and all. I have an assignment for you.

  1. #21
    Senior Member Ken Bora's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HPL View Post
    Our maintenance of bases and troops overseas, although perhaps related to the "nation building" question is actually at least to some degree a different issue. There are certainly multiple reasons for this practice. Some of it is to protect our economic interests, some to protect out allies, and some to simply keep perceived enemies at bay.
    correct! but a good branch off for talking about.
    "So what is big is not always the Trout nor the Deer but the chance, the being there. And what is full is not necessarily the creel nor the freezer, but the memory." ~ Aldo Leopold

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  2. #22
    Senior Member Ken Bora's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Golddogs View Post
    Boy I hate it when my memory slips. I forgot about US Foods role in central America and Cuba. Big business and big money played a huge role in establlishing US friendly dictators in that region.
    and built roads and rail and shipping ports for sugar and was it Dole? the pineapple canner as well. but wasn't that a lot of private industry dollars combining with U.S. military "protection"? but it that / those cases were we nation building? Teaching how to form a government. Or simply exploiting? and the infrastructure we added did help build the nations in question but were made for our own selfish reasons????
    "So what is big is not always the Trout nor the Deer but the chance, the being there. And what is full is not necessarily the creel nor the freezer, but the memory." ~ Aldo Leopold

    "The Greatest Obstacle to Discovery is not Ignorance -- It is the Illusion of Knowledge" ~ Daniel Boorstin

  3. #23
    Senior Member Golddogs's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Bora View Post
    and built roads and rail and shipping ports for sugar and was it Dole? the pineapple canner as well. but wasn't that a lot of private industry dollars combining with U.S. military "protection"? but it that / those cases were we nation building? Teaching how to form a government. Or simply exploiting? and the infrastructure we added did help build the nations in question but were made for our own selfish reasons????
    Good questions Ken.

    When American Fruit and others beagn in Central America, I don't think anything they did was for any other reason than to get there product grown and to market as quickly and cheaply as posible. The SOP of the time was payoff's to whoever was in power, and over time, many of those companies, with US backing, helped to establish business friendly " leaders" and keep them in power. ( Batista as an example ) So in the beginning, I feel it was all about the profit and building the companies.

    As we, the world, became more inter- connected, and it became frowned upon to support despotic leaders, then I believe we began "Nation Building" in earnest. ( Peron and Penochete come to mind, but they were more early 60's ) and we began to accept the " lesser of two evils " approach to leaders we supported. And I think that pattern continues today. While we thump our chests and demand democracy from so many other countries, it is pretty clear that we are just as happy to work with a head of state who is pro US ( the Saudis come to mind )

    Bottom line: it was and is about the $$$....., and began in earnest, by the US, after the Spanish American War, when all of the then super powers were in decline world wide.

    PS:
    As a nation builder we stink and have done a piss poor job overall. England on the other hand had great success, but it was done by occupying, dismantiling the existing rule structure and spending years in the countries as both a military and or business presence. ( East India Company comes to mind ) Countries like Jamaica, India, Caymen Island are all built on the English model and run pretty well.
    Never trust a dog to watch your food!

  4. #24
    Senior Member road kill's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Golddogs View Post
    Good questions Ken.

    When American Fruit and others beagn in Central America, I don't think anything they did was for any other reason than to get there product grown and to market as quickly and cheaply as posible. The SOP of the time was payoff's to whoever was in power, and over time, many of those companies, with US backing, helped to establish business friendly " leaders" and keep them in power. ( Batista as an example ) So in the beginning, I feel it was all about the profit and building the companies.

    As we, the world, became more inter- connected, and it became frowned upon to support despotic leaders, then I believe we began "Nation Building" in earnest. ( Peron and Penochete come to mind, but they were more early 60's ) and we began to accept the " lesser of two evils " approach to leaders we supported. And I think that pattern continues today. While we thump our chests and demand democracy from so many other countries, it is pretty clear that we are just as happy to work with a head of state who is pro US ( the Saudis come to mind )

    Bottom line: it was and is about the $$$....., and began in earnest, by the US, after the Spanish American War, when all of the then super powers were in decline world wide.

    PS:
    As a nation builder we stink and have done a piss poor job overall. England on the other hand had great success, but it was done by occupying, dismantiling the existing rule structure and spending years in the countries as both a military and or business presence. ( East India Company comes to mind ) Countries like Jamaica, India, Caymen Island are all built on the English model and run pretty well.
    I agree, look what we have done to America!!!!
    Stan b & Elvis

  5. #25
    Senior Member HPL's Avatar
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    Don't forget the term "Banana Republic" (not the clothing maker) and the role United Fruit had in forming the US' "colonial" (for lack of a better term) efforts. Nation building, like general exploration, is clearly often about expanding markets (which is NOT a bad thing). As Ken mentioned, in the past, at least, much of the infrastructure has been financed by the business interests that have operations in these countries. We also know that there have been times when these same financial interests have involved a bit of intrigue and have gotten the US involved in military actions.
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  6. #26
    Senior Member 2tall's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Bora View Post
    and built roads and rail and shipping ports for sugar and was it Dole? the pineapple canner as well. but wasn't that a lot of private industry dollars combining with U.S. military "protection"? but it that / those cases were we nation building? Teaching how to form a government. Or simply exploiting? and the infrastructure we added did help build the nations in question but were made for our own selfish reasons????
    Quote Originally Posted by Golddogs View Post
    Good questions Ken.

    When American Fruit and others beagn in Central America, I don't think anything they did was for any other reason than to get there product grown and to market as quickly and cheaply as posible. The SOP of the time was payoff's to whoever was in power, and over time, many of those companies, with US backing, helped to establish business friendly " leaders" and keep them in power. ( Batista as an example ) So in the beginning, I feel it was all about the profit and building the companies.

    As we, the world, became more inter- connected, and it became frowned upon to support despotic leaders, then I believe we began "Nation Building" in earnest. ( Peron and Penochete come to mind, but they were more early 60's ) and we began to accept the " lesser of two evils " approach to leaders we supported. And I think that pattern continues today. While we thump our chests and demand democracy from so many other countries, it is pretty clear that we are just as happy to work with a head of state who is pro US ( the Saudis come to mind )

    Bottom line: it was and is about the $$$....., and began in earnest, by the US, after the Spanish American War, when all of the then super powers were in decline world wide.

    PS:
    As a nation builder we stink and have done a piss poor job overall. England on the other hand had great success, but it was done by occupying, dismantiling the existing rule structure and spending years in the countries as both a military and or business presence. ( East India Company comes to mind ) Countries like Jamaica, India, Caymen Island are all built on the English model and run pretty well.
    Lets not forget or reinterpret what United Fruit meant to Latin America. Not only did their operations rape the jungles of our southern neighbor, they also shut down all of the banana exports of the Caribbean countries of Grenada, St. Lucia and several others that had depended on the commerce for survival. (not to mention the fruit is way better) This was a blatant example of "Nation Building" being the pretty label given to the act of using our military and political influence to further the fortunes of corporations bent on exploitation.
    The following by Pablo Neruda: (I can not find the name of this translator.)

    "When the trumpet sounded
    everything was prepared on earth,
    and Jehovah gave the world
    to Coca-Cola Inc., Anaconda,
    Ford Motors, and other corporations.
    The United Fruit Company
    reserved for itself the most juicy
    piece, the central coast of my world,
    the delicate waist of America.

    It rebaptized these countries
    Banana Republics,
    and over the sleeping dead,
    over the unquiet heroes
    who won greatness,
    liberty, and banners,
    it established an opera buffa:
    it abolished free will,
    gave out imperial crowns,
    encouraged envy, attracted
    the dictatorship of flies:
    Trujillo flies, Tachos flies
    Carias flies, Martinez flies,
    Ubico flies, flies sticky with
    submissive blood and marmalade,
    drunken flies that buzz over
    the tombs of the people,
    circus flies, wise flies
    expert at tyranny.

    With the bloodthirsty flies
    came the Fruit Company,
    amassed coffee and fruit
    in ships which put to sea like
    overloaded trays with the treasures
    from our sunken lands.

    Meanwhile the Indians fall
    into the sugared depths of the
    harbors and are buried in the
    morning mists;
    a corpse rolls, a thing without
    name, a discarded number,
    a bunch of rotten fruit
    thrown on the garbage heap
    Last edited by 2tall; 11-24-2012 at 10:20 AM.
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  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by road kill View Post
    I agree, look what we have done to America!!!!
    One of your more astute posts

    Im old enough to remember when that post would have been pure comedy. Sadly there is a whole lot of truth to it today. Our nation building efforts definitely need to be focused right here at home until we can get our own house in order we need to stay out of other peoples business

  8. #28
    Senior Member Golddogs's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 2tall View Post
    they also shut down all of the banana exports of the Caribbean countries of Grenada, St. Lucia and several others that had depended on the commerce for survival. (not to mention the fruit is way better)
    Totally agree. We have a good friend in Jamaica, Donald Thorpe, who started out in Bananas on his family farm, ( 40 acres ) and made enough to start his own Tour service. His first car was an old Renault and now has 2 Toyota mini vans and 3 Coaster busses.


    Most of the export agriculture on that island was impacted by big business in the Latin American countries and was a major cause of many leaving to Canada and the UK for jobs. About the only real ag exports left are Rum and Red Stripe, Blue Mountain coffee and some sugar.

    ( ironically Fruit of the Loom has a very nice factory just outside of Mo Bay supplying underwear instead of Bananas )
    Never trust a dog to watch your food!

  9. #29
    Senior Member 2tall's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Golddogs View Post
    Totally agree. We have a good friend in Jamaica, Donald Thorpe, who started out in Bananas on his family farm, ( 40 acres ) and made enough to start his own Tour service. His first car was an old Renault and now has 2 Toyota mini vans and 3 Coaster busses.


    Most of the export agriculture on that island was impacted by big business in the Latin American countries and was a major cause of many leaving to Canada and the UK for jobs. About the only real ag exports left are Rum and Red Stripe, Blue Mountain coffee and some sugar.

    ( ironically Fruit of the Loom has a very nice factory just outside of Mo Bay supplying underwear instead of Bananas )
    Oh no Golddogs, you just had to leave that out there didn't you? Fruit of the loom is making "Banana Slings" now????? (thongs for guys) Could not help myself. But back to topic, sort of. In 1992 we took a great tour of Grenada(a local guide) that included the banana farms and the spice warehouses. We were given a "hand" of bananas at each place so we could compare. I swear it was like a vineyard tour. Each farmer's product had its own taste, texture and level of sweetness. It was the best tasting fruit I have ever had. When I asked the driver why we could not buy this guys produce back in the states, he gave me the long sad tale about UFCO and how the windward islands were kept out of the US markets. Sad for them, sad for us.
    Carol,
    Owned and handled by Cruisin' with Indiana Jones, JH
    Alternate Handler: Westwind Buffalo Soldier
    Apprentice Handler: Snake River Medicine Man, JH
    http://newhoperetrievers.com

  10. #30
    Senior Member road kill's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by smillerdvm View Post
    One of your more astute posts

    Im old enough to remember when that post would have been pure comedy. Sadly there is a whole lot of truth to it today. Our nation building efforts definitely need to be focused right here at home until we can get our own house in order we need to stay out of other peoples business
    All of my posts are "astute."
    If you could transcend your bias you would know that.
    Stan b & Elvis

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