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Thread: If Thomas Jefferson Were Alive Today

  1. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by mngundog View Post
    Sally was a 14 year old slave girl when he started raping her, at least that was the info I have read.
    Yes, she was a slave. Short family tree explanation was interesting reading. Don't ask me where I read the explanation for the family tree though. If I remember correctly it was said that she looked a little like the deceased wife of Jefferson. Just a sidelight to things that I found interesting.
    charly

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  2. #82
    Senior Member Franco's Avatar
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    If Thomas Jefferson were alive today, he would certainly support the only political party that supports these basic principles of Liberty;

    "We hold that all individuals have the right to exercise sole dominion over their own lives, and have the right to live in whatever manner they choose, so long as they do not forcibly interfere with the equal right of others to live in whatever manner they choose"

    "A free and competitive market allocates resources in the most efficient manner. Each person has the right to offer goods and services to others on the free market. The only proper role of government in the economic realm is to protect property rights, adjudicate disputes, and provide a legal framework in which voluntary trade is protected. All efforts by government to redistribute wealth, or to control or manage trade, are improper in a free society."

    "
    All persons are entitled to keep the fruits of their labor. We call for the repeal of the income tax, the abolishment of the Internal Revenue Service and all federal programs and services not required under the U.S. Constitution. We oppose any legal requirements forcing employers to serve as tax collectors. Government should not incur debt, which burdens future generations without their consent. We support the passage of a "Balanced Budget Amendment" to the U.S. Constitution, provided that the budget is balanced exclusively by cutting expenditures, and not by raising taxes."

    "We support repeal of all laws which impede the ability of any person to find employment. We oppose government-fostered forced retirement. We support the right of free persons to associate or not associate in labor unions, and an employer should have the right to recognize or refuse to recognize a union. We oppose government interference in bargaining, such as compulsory arbitration or imposing an obligation to bargain"

    "
    Education is best provided by the free market, achieving greater quality, accountability and efficiency with more diversity of choice. Recognizing that the education of children is a parental responsibility, we would restore authority to parents to determine the education of their children, without interference from government. Parents should have control of and responsibility for all funds expended for their children's education."

    "
    We favor restoring and reviving a free market health care system. We recognize the freedom of individuals to determine the level of health insurance they want (if any), the level of health care they want, the care providers they want, the medicines and treatments they will use and all other aspects of their medical care, including end-of-life decisions. People should be free to purchase health insurance across state lines."

    American foreign policy should seek an America at peace with the world. Our foreign policy should emphasize defense against attack from abroad and enhance the likelihood of peace by avoiding foreign entanglements. We would end the current U.S. government policy of foreign intervention, including military and economic aid. We recognize the right of all people to resist tyranny and defend themselves and their rights. We condemn the use of force, and especially the use of terrorism, against the innocent, regardless of whether such acts are committed by governments or by political or revolutionary groups."

    If anyone cares to read more...
    http://www.lp.org/platform

    "
    It's time we abandon our party affiliations and rather than being good Dems or good Repubs we all become good Americans. MJH345

  3. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by Franco View Post
    If Thomas Jefferson were alive today, he would certainly support the only political party that supports these basic principles of Liberty;

    "We hold that all individuals have the right to exercise sole dominion over their own lives, and have the right to live in whatever manner they choose, so long as they do not forcibly interfere with the equal right of others to live in whatever manner they choose"

    "A free and competitive market allocates resources in the most efficient manner. Each person has the right to offer goods and services to others on the free market. The only proper role of government in the economic realm is to protect property rights, adjudicate disputes, and provide a legal framework in which voluntary trade is protected. All efforts by government to redistribute wealth, or to control or manage trade, are improper in a free society."

    "
    All persons are entitled to keep the fruits of their labor. We call for the repeal of the income tax, the abolishment of the Internal Revenue Service and all federal programs and services not required under the U.S. Constitution. We oppose any legal requirements forcing employers to serve as tax collectors. Government should not incur debt, which burdens future generations without their consent. We support the passage of a "Balanced Budget Amendment" to the U.S. Constitution, provided that the budget is balanced exclusively by cutting expenditures, and not by raising taxes."

    "We support repeal of all laws which impede the ability of any person to find employment. We oppose government-fostered forced retirement. We support the right of free persons to associate or not associate in labor unions, and an employer should have the right to recognize or refuse to recognize a union. We oppose government interference in bargaining, such as compulsory arbitration or imposing an obligation to bargain"

    "
    Education is best provided by the free market, achieving greater quality, accountability and efficiency with more diversity of choice. Recognizing that the education of children is a parental responsibility, we would restore authority to parents to determine the education of their children, without interference from government. Parents should have control of and responsibility for all funds expended for their children's education."

    "
    We favor restoring and reviving a free market health care system. We recognize the freedom of individuals to determine the level of health insurance they want (if any), the level of health care they want, the care providers they want, the medicines and treatments they will use and all other aspects of their medical care, including end-of-life decisions. People should be free to purchase health insurance across state lines."

    American foreign policy should seek an America at peace with the world. Our foreign policy should emphasize defense against attack from abroad and enhance the likelihood of peace by avoiding foreign entanglements. We would end the current U.S. government policy of foreign intervention, including military and economic aid. We recognize the right of all people to resist tyranny and defend themselves and their rights. We condemn the use of force, and especially the use of terrorism, against the innocent, regardless of whether such acts are committed by governments or by political or revolutionary groups."

    If anyone cares to read more...
    http://www.lp.org/platform

    "
    Does that mean he would have no influence just like the Libertarian Party?

  4. #84
    Senior Member huntinman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cody Covey View Post
    Does that mean he would have no influence just like the Libertarian Party?
    Post of the day!!!!!!!!!!!

    From the Echo Chamber
    Bill Davis

  5. #85
    Senior Member Franco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cody Covey View Post
    Does that mean he would have no influence just like the Libertarian Party?
    Only if one has given up and is comfortable with ceding one's Liberties. THe GOP would have to go through a major transformation to ever be relative in the present or future.
    Last edited by Franco; 11-30-2012 at 04:57 PM.
    It's time we abandon our party affiliations and rather than being good Dems or good Repubs we all become good Americans. MJH345

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    Quote Originally Posted by Franco View Post
    Only if one has given up and is comfortable with ceding one's Liberties. THe GOP would have to go through a major transformation to ever be relative in the present or future.
    I know you keep saying this but it is simply not true. The presidential vote came out 51 - 49 and the GOP controls one branch of the legislature, actually adding to its lead in the house. It did lose some seats in the Senate but to say it has no relevance (I assume that is what you meant) is garbage and you know it. You may not like it, hell I don't even disagree with most of what you say, but the libertarian party MIGHT have captured ALMOST 1% of the vote in the national election and its poster boy doesn't even want to identify himself as a Libertarian because he knows people would take him less serious than they already do.

  7. #87
    Senior Member Franco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cody Covey View Post
    I know you keep saying this but it is simply not true. The presidential vote came out 51 - 49 and the GOP controls one branch of the legislature, actually adding to its lead in the house. It did lose some seats in the Senate but to say it has no relevance (I assume that is what you meant) is garbage and you know it. You may not like it, hell I don't even disagree with most of what you say, but the libertarian party MIGHT have captured ALMOST 1% of the vote in the national election and its poster boy doesn't even want to identify himself as a Libertarian because he knows people would take him less serious than they already do.
    First, my poster boy has retired though his message has inspired a movement. Just look at the number of Libertarian candidates running at the state level at lp.org

    Second, how and where will the GOP grow support; South Carolina, Texas, Mississippi etc? The GOP brand is severly damaged. The party is not attractive to the vast majority of youth. Again, though they are slightly better than the Dems on the economyand spending, their stand on social issues will continue to hold them back.

    Jon Huntsmen was on one of the news channels today and he was saying exacly what the Libertarian Party has been saying. Now, we all know Huntsmen is not popular with the GOP base. Yet, he was probably the most intelligent of the lot that ran for the GOP ticket!

    Obama is taking his 1.6 trillion tax hike, new Stimulus program, no cuts to entitlements, abolishing the Debt Ceiling on the road, to the people. What do the Repubs have? A bunch of old stuffy political hacks like Boehner, McConnell, Chambliss etc.talking to Fox. Who do you think is going to win their way? Obama is going to run this country so far left and take away so many of our Liberties that hopefully, people will understand what Liberty really means! Because the GOP and the vast majority of thier supporters are clueless about what real Liberty means. The real Conservative movement and Liberty's salvation is with our youth because the old folks just don't get it!

    Here is an interesting piece from the CATO Inst. How many Libertarian voters are there.
    http://www.libertarianism.org/media/...ters-are-there

    When people are asked if they are Fiscally Conservative and Socially Liberal, they get a 55% plus positive response!
    Last edited by Franco; 11-30-2012 at 07:13 PM.
    It's time we abandon our party affiliations and rather than being good Dems or good Repubs we all become good Americans. MJH345

  8. #88
    Senior Member Golddogs's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Bora View Post
    we need an RTF dentist 'cause I feel like I'm pullin' teeth here.
    Ken maybe this might help. I highlighted an interesting paragrqph.

    The America Ben Franklin saw

    By Walter Isaacson


    When he was a young man, Benjamin Franklin wired together a set of batteries he had just invented and used them to shock turkeys slated for a Thanksgiving feast. Thus he added yet another invention to his list: the fried turkey. “The birds killed in this manner eat uncommonly tender,” he wrote.

    After election seasons such as the one past, and when facing “fiscal cliffs” like the one looming, it’s therapeutic to gaze back through history’s haze and catch the eye of Franklin, the Founding Father who winks at us. The twinkle behind his bifocals reassures us that things will turn out all right.

    Franklin’s optimism about the American experiment is reflected in an essay he wrote about our first Thanksgiving. The early settlers, “their minds gloomy and discontented,” frequently fasted to seek relief from their distress, he recounted. Just when they were about to declare another day of fasting, “a farmer of plain sense” pointed out that “the inconveniences they suffered, and concerning which they had so often wearied heaven with their complaints, were not so great.” Instead of another fast, the farmer argued, they should have a feast to give thanks. Writing a century later — in 1785, a period when both the economy and political system looked fragile, rather like the present — Franklin assured his fellow citizens that thanksgiving was still warranted. “Let us take a cool view of the general state of our affairs, and perhaps the prospect will appear less gloomy than has been imagined,” he wrote.

    One of the glories of America is that there are two strands in its national character. One is that of the liberty-loving individualist who flies a flag proclaiming, Don’t tread on me. The other is that of the civicminded citizen who sees our nation’s progress as a common endeavor. Tocqueville wrote that these strands were often in conflict. But Franklin realized that these strands were interwoven and related, part of the warp and woof of the tightly knit American fabric.

    Franklin was the first great embodiment of that American archetype: the spunky, self-made Horatio Alger who rises from rags to riches by aspiration and grit, then dedicates himself to creating a society where others can do the same. He believed the business of America was not merely to celebrate success but also to ensure each generation had the opportunity to achieve it.

    These Rotarian instincts were nurtured in a civic-improvement club that Franklin founded as a young printer in Philadelphia. The Leather Apron Club was composed of enterprising tradesmen, artisans and shopkeepers, what he proudly called “we the middling people.” Instead of replicating the rigid hereditary class system of England, America should have as its backbone, Franklin believed, a middle class whose success came from hard work.

    The Leather Apron Club discussed civic and political issues, devised schemes for self-improvement and formed a network dedicated to “doing well by doing good.” Its members helped launch a flotilla of civic associations, including militia and street-sweeping corps, volunteer firefighters, tax-supported neighborhood constables, health and life insurance groups, a library, a hospital, an academy for educating youth, a society for sharing scientific information and a postal system to help connect everyone.

    Franklin believed that civic and military service were enriching. If he were around today, he would probably be encouraging business groups and trade associations to form organizations similar to Teach for America, to allow people the opportunity to be part of legal, financial, health, technology and other service corps.

    He also believed that compromisers may not make great heroes but that they do make great democracies. Even he did not always get right the balance between compromise and principle. At the Constitutional Convention, he was willing to go along with the compromises on slavery. But he tried to right himself when he got the balance wrong. At age 81, he became an outspoken advocate of abolition.

    Over the years, America has been pretty good at regaining its balance. Albert Einstein fretted deeply about the anti-communist witch hunts of the early 1950s and told friends that America seemed to be on a course similar to Germany’s in the 1930s. A few years later, as the frenzy subsided, Einstein discovered what was fundamental about America: It can be swept by waves of seemingly dangerous political passions. But those sentiments pass, absorbed by its democracy and righted by its constitutional gyroscope. “Somehow they manage to return to normality,” he marveled about Americans in a letter to his son.

    Franklin had the vision to see America as made up of rugged individualists who valued their freedom but also cared about the aspirations of others. In his will, Franklin left the bulk of his wealth to create revolving loan funds so that aspiring young tradesmen and shopkeepers could borrow a little money to get started, then pay it back so that subsequent young entrepreneurs could get a helping hand. These loan funds worked for more than two centuries.

    Franklin also understood the beauty of diversity. During his lifetime, he donated to the building fund of every church constructed in Philadelphia. When a hall was being built to accommodate visiting preachers, Franklin urged his fellow citizens to donate “so that even if the Mufti of Constantinople were to send a missionary to preach Mohammedanism to us, he would find a pulpit at his service.” On his deathbed, he made one of the largest donations for the first synagogue built in Philadelphia.

    It was that type of America — built on freedom, liberty, opportunity, shared aspirations and diversity — that Franklin and his fellow founders helped create. I suspect he would be confident that we today can still balance those ideals.
    Walter Isaacson is chief executive of the Aspen Institute. He has written biographies of Albert Einstein, Benjamin Franklin, Steve Jobs and Henry Kissinger. He wrote this column for the Washington Post.

    One of the glories of America is that there are two strands in its national character. One is that of the liberty-loving individualist who flies a flag proclaiming, Don’t tread on me. The other is that of the civic-minded citizen who sees our nation’s progress as a common endeavor. ocqueville wrote that these strands were often in conflict. But Franklin realized that these strands were interwoven and related, part of the warp and woof of the tightly knit American fabric.

    Never trust a dog to watch your food!

  9. #89
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    Good post.



    JD
    Last edited by JDogger; 11-30-2012 at 06:32 PM.
    One cannot reason someone out of something they were not reasoned into. - Jonathan Swift

  10. #90
    Senior Member Franco's Avatar
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    Good post Golddogs but, I am not as optimistic as you.

    Franklin never envisoned as 16TRILLION dollar debt and growing. A Federal government that has ceded its monetary policy to International banking and an over-bearing, over-grown Federal government that is taking away our Liberties, controlling our opportunites and promotes Crony Capitalism.

    "It was that type of America — built on freedom, liberty, opportunity, shared aspirations and diversity — that Franklin and his fellow founders helped create. I suspect he would be confident that we today can still balance those ideals."
    Last edited by Franco; 11-30-2012 at 06:41 PM.
    It's time we abandon our party affiliations and rather than being good Dems or good Repubs we all become good Americans. MJH345

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