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What's the Point, Part 2

32K views 127 replies 44 participants last post by  Hunt'EmUp 
#1 ·
Many dogs are trained and handled to a qualifying 1st or 2nd by a pro.

Every time I think about entering a Qual I look and see the Pros entered and think why brother.


The biggest battle cry one constantly hears about FT's is "getting new/young people invloved". The 2 quotes above come from the original "What's the point" thread. In my opinion, the 2 quotes above say a lot about that "cry" for new blood.

I respect the young dog trainers who run the minor stakes, please don't get me wrong, but I just don't understand why, as an owner, you would do this. The only reason that comes to mind is that the trial is in the South for a northern owner or the North for a southern owner.

Is there pressure when you run a minor stake? As a new owner/young blood to the sport you bet there is. However, there isn't a better place in the FT game to get your feet underneath you and gain control of your emotions than the minor stakes.

Don't sit on the side lines any longer. Get out there and play the game. Have fun, have failures as well that will make those successes all the more sweeter!!
 
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#49 ·
As a Devil's advocate for a moment . . . .

I think we would all agree that the first requirement is a dog who can be a competitive FT dog. I think we would also agree that the best way to go about this is to acquire such a dog at a cost of somewhere around $2000. Then, for most of us, the dog would go to a pro to determine if it in fact was a competitive FT dog. At least 6 months at somewhere between $700 - $1000 a month, or another $4200 - $6000. This does not count food, vet bills, etc.

Now, with all that money and expertise having gone into the dog and its training, why would I handle it?

Put another way, could I take Jimmie Johnson's race car and get the same or better results than Jimmie? With the same exact car? Racing against other NASCAR drivers?

It's possible that I could outrace those guys, but not very likely.
 
#50 ·
Don't get into the sport then is what I would say. Again, What's the point if you are not going to run your own dog. Where is the pleasure in having someone compete with your dog?

I'm not saying don't use a pro, there is nothing wrong with having them take the dog and train it for a few months. However, to sit on the side lines while the game is being played isn't fun at all. How does one get enjoyment from that?
 
#68 ·
wade,
there are lots of ways to skin a cat. for some folks it seems to be "all about the dog". these folk want their dog to reach its highest potenetial and they do what is necessary to ensure the dog has the best of everything in professional training, handling and events schedules. they sometimes go and watch sitting in a nice folding chair. they attain great satisfaction that the breeding they performed or purchased a pup from turned out a nice dog. they remember the puppy work and basics they performed while interviewing pros to determine which would seem to suit their dog best. all their avilable resouces go into the development of the dog.

for others it seems "it's more about me". i trained this dog. i am part of a great training group. i handled this dog. i spent the time necessary to campaign this dog. i beat this pro or that pro with my dog. they get great rewards when all their available resources go into development of the dog.

i am new to field trialing but not new to dogs. i train and handle my own pups sometimes. sometimes i sit in a nice folding chair. sometimes i look on rtf results to see what happened.

but if i imagine my best ft day ever, i would be sitting in my chair on a cool autumn day in the gallery. and someone interupts my talking dogs with a guy like say??? mac dubose or dr.ed and says, "hey your dog just won the open!"

as long as i got a good chair, whats wrong with that?
 
#70 ·
wade,
there are lots of ways to skin a cat. for some folks it seems to be "all about the dog". these folk want their dog to reach its highest potenetial and they do what is necessary to ensure the dog has the best of everything in professional training, handling and events schedules. they sometimes go and watch sitting in a nice folding chair. they attain great satisfaction that the breeding they performed or purchased a pup from turned out a nice dog. they remember the puppy work and basics they performed while interviewing pros to determine which would seem to suit their dog best. all their avilable resouces go into the development of the dog.

for others it seems "it's more about me". i trained this dog. i am part of a great training group. i handled this dog. i spent the time necessary to campaign this dog. i beat this pro or that pro with my dog. they get great rewards when all their available resources go into development of the dog.

i am new to field trialing but not new to dogs. i train and handle my own pups sometimes. sometimes i sit in a nice folding chair. sometimes i look on rtf results to see what happened.

but if i imagine my best ft day ever, i would be sitting in my chair on a cool autumn day in the gallery. and someone interupts my talking dogs with a guy like say??? mac dubose or dr.ed and says, "hey your dog just won the open!"

as long as i got a good chair, whats wrong with that?
Don't kid yourself. Dogs don't know if they are champions or not. It's always about what the owner wants. Hopefully the dogs are suited to what they are doing and hopefully they have a fair trainer - and therefore end up having fun living the owner's dream
 
#69 ·
Just talking my situation:

Dog is just turned 1yr old. Just out of the yard.
I am very happy with her progress,and I believe because of the Pro, my foundation work is more solid than any dog I have had previously.

Sho just ran her first set of land blinds lat week.
She hasn't had any water blind work.
very little in the way of big water marks.

For me to sit back and say my Goal is to run major stakes in FT, seems silly to me.

To much can happen in the future. Dog could get hurt.
Her water work may be less than stellar.
There may be all kinds of stuff down the road.
I,m just focusing on today,and trying to get better.
 
#71 ·
I think your goal should be to run and win a Qual! That's just me...I'll be running riot soon enough (assuming he makes it)...so bring it on chicken wing!
 
#77 ·
My mother encouraged me to dream big and told me when I was very young that I could succeed at whatever I set my mind to accomplish. To my regret on some occasions, but mostly to my satisfaction, I believed what she taught me.

When I began my field trial career with Zowie (later FC/AFC Freeridin Wowie Zowie), I told my pro, Cherylon Loveland, that my goal was to be a finalist in the National Amateur.

At the time, I had yet to run my first derby, and I had never been to a National. I had no idea what I was aspiring to accomplish. Since then I have had two finalists in the National Amateur Retriever Championship.

My goal now is to win one.
 
#78 · (Edited)
Many dogs are trained and handled to a qualifying 1st or 2nd by a pro.

Every time I think about entering a Qual I look and see the Pros entered and think why brother.


The biggest battle cry one constantly hears about FT's is "getting new/young people invloved". The 2 quotes above come from the original "What's the point" thread. In my opinion, the 2 quotes above say a lot about that "cry" for new blood.
 
#80 ·
Gooser, I think I know what you need! You need a Chocolate Lab that understands YOU! I had one, Gator Point's Georgia Brown, that made ME look like a handler. At one hunt test I tried my best to get the dog to go a certain way until one of the judges said, "Leave the dog alone" and she picked up the bird. When I came to the water series that same judge said, "Why don't you let the dog shoot the gun too, she's done every thing else for you?" Those brown dogs have been good to me, try one some time, Chocolate is sweet. Bill
 
#81 ·
Gooser, I have long gone by a saying I heard once...."If you think you can or you think you can't, you are right!" The dog I now own, I bought thinking I could have a gun dog for hunting. I had never been to or seen a field trial a couple years ago, but met some field trialers. My dog is now QAA at 3 and I am testing my saying above, because I am thinking AFC or even FC is in my future. Good luck to you, but as others have said, raise your goals!
 
#83 ·
Hey Dave is that you? If so just remember it's Abbey not you :) and yes she is a very nice dog.See you in the Ams this spring.

Jeff
 
#82 ·
Well Gooser I think it's fine that all you want is a good hunting dog. I also think that a MH or HRCH is a hellava accomplishment and a very very worthwhile goal. I guess that's just me though.
 
#84 ·

I want to be sure that there is no confusion about my previous posts.

First, I don't think that any of us need to force competitive venues on anyone else. There is nothing wrong with not enjoying competition, any more than there is something wrong with enjoying competition. As long as you are having fun with your dog(s), who cares?

Second, when it comes to Mike (MooserGooser), I am not telling him that he should compete, or that he is wrong in not wanting to compete. I am simply saying I am tired of hearing him whine - both on RTF and in person - about his alleged short-comings. I don't think that those short comings are present. But, if they were, I would tell him - and anyone else - either fix it or stop complaining about it. I despise whining.

Third, I am not much into the "this person is better than that person" stuff we get so frequently on RTF

Suppose
Person A trains and handles his dog
Person B has a pro train his dog, but handles it in competition
Person C has a pro train and handle his dog

Why is any person better than the other?

For my own selfish reasons, I would like to have more owners run their dogs, because I believe - perhaps wrongly - that the more people did so, the more people we would have working at, judging, and putting on trials - which I think is good.

Ted

 
#127 ·
You know Gooser and I don't and you have the knowledge and the titles. Sometimes I get kind of concerned when it seems that the HRCH and MH is treated as just something that you can get while going for the FC and AFC. Maybe I'm just being oversensitive and I'm not saying you've done this. Like I said, I think the HRCH and the MH and big accomplishment.
 
#128 · (Edited)
You know Gooser and I don't and you have the knowledge and the titles. Sometimes I get kind of concerned when it seems that the HRCH and MH is treated as just something that you can get while going for the FC and AFC.
FT & HT are they're own cultures and do not cross much. How many FC-AFC these days do you see with an MH attached to the back? (Very Few) I don't know that I've ever seen one with an HRCH or a GRHRCH attached. It's becoming rare to see even QAA or derby dogs with HT titles. Seems like people choose one or the other, perhaps if you had more cross you might see more of this new blood everyone is supposedly looking for. But realistically everything from trials-tests-clubs right down to training groups-training style are segregated, often times with very ingrained opinions about the other venue (both sides). There is no real transition point btw the two, Picnic trails have all but disappeared, Every once in a great while you might see an Owner/handler Qual attached to a HT, those are increasing in rarity. Where's the pull-hook for the HT amateur to even try the FT venue, without jumping straight in to a venue ran mainly by pro trained dogs which is all but setup with an air of exclusivity and unattainably?
 
#85 ·
Bunch of cry babies.
If you want it bad enough, go get it.
Field trials are a competition, with only 1 winner.
When enough old guys die off, doors open for new blood. The cycle continues.
Don't whine that you can't compete against the pros, there are too many that do.
You had better learn to accept failure, while committing to improve. Otherwise consider an adult FFPS league.
 
#90 ·
What an inviting intro to the FT game. Sort of like letting the newbies here know right up front that they need thick skin to enjoy the forum, because they are going to be treated rudely.
I am so sick and tired of this attitude that it has pretty well stolen the joy. I'll just have fun working my dogs when and where I can. After all, they are why I do it.
 
#86 ·
My Goal is to have a well trained dog..
Gooser[/QUOTE]

My thoughts exactly. You have to to far to get payback and that is not my drive anyways. I do it because I want a kick ass hunting dog that everyone wants to invite me on their trips. When I do a FT and my dog makes a call back "win win". One of these times we will beat them. Kind of like beating the NY Yankees.
 
#91 ·
Carol,

I believe Mark was saying that you do have to be able to accept defeat and get your satisfaction in small doses. The OP has an issue with Pro's in the Qual, this is just the way it is. I have been blessed to have my first two dogs be some what competitive. Competition is tough. Not everyone gets a ribbon or even to play until the end. Once you win though you realize how watered down that feeling would be if things were made less competitive. Also there is the Owner/handler Qual. Im not a big fan of them but hay they are part of the sport. So Like Mark said either go to the Truck and cry or Cowboy up. Things are tough at the top level of dog games. The rewards are even greater. At least to me. off my soap box now.
 
#97 ·
Carol,

I believe Mark was saying that you do have to be able to accept defeat and get your satisfaction in small doses. .... Competition is tough. Not everyone gets a ribbon or even to play until the end. Once you win though you realize how watered down that feeling would be if things were made less competitive. ... Things are tough at the top level of dog games. The rewards are even greater.

Competition is tough. But, as Mike said, it can be very rewarding.

I don't think people who are not part of the FT circle realize how we competitors can try to beat one another's brains out in a derby, qual, amateur, or open - be disappointed that our dog has not won or placed - yet still genuinely applaud someone who has won or placed.

And then, start the process all over again, the next weekend.

Your toughest competitors are often your best friends.
 
#92 ·
(Mike beat me to it, thanks TD#2! Too bad you don't have your own products line!)

Take my post out of context if you choose Carol.
The thread is about competing agains pros in field trials. It has nothing to do with participation on the forum, or in hunt tests, or agility, or dock dogs, or visits to the bark park.
I haven't met a pro yet that's going to withdraw their client's dog from the 4th series to give some amateur a better chance. I wouldn't want to win that trial if they did. (Ok, well maybe I would accept the blue, but it would have an asterisk).
As one person on here will say... put on your big girl (or boy) panties if you choose to participate in a competitive sport.
If you're only in it for the social aspect, that's your perogative I suppose, but that's not why I compete. (Although I've made some great friends in my pursuit).
There are multiple avenues for spending time with your dog, but that's not this subject.
 
#93 ·
Mark & Mike,

The thread is not that I have issues with Pro's running the Q or competing against Pro's. I am trying to state that I would like to see new people run there own dogs, especially in the minors, rather than have a pro run the dog. Is there a better place than the minor stakes to run as a newbie than the minors? People talk about getting new blood in the FT game all the time, GREAT. But run your dogs when you have the chance. Don't be a spectator, be a participant, is what I'm trying to say.
 
#95 ·
You're absolutely right Wade. I veered a little.
If you're not going to compete in the minor stakes, its more doubtful you'll ever run the AAs.
(Although I'm just as nervous going to the line in the minor stakes as in the majors).
I'll also never understand what possible satisfaction folks get out of someone else titling their dog in HTs, but that's their business too.
I have an analogy that's not appropriate here.
 
#99 ·
Yeah Jeff, it is me. How is Beanie doin? I am thinking of taking the BIG step to AA next season....kinda scarey cause it will be new to me, but I got some good experience running the Q's. You are right, I have a good dog and I am trying to learn to me a good handler, I spent all those quals more for me getting experience and getting over the jitters, than for Abby. I think had I put her on a Pro's truck, she would have advanced much faster, but I am enjoying learning this whole game. Right now Abby is being a gun dog, which is what I originally bought her for. She retrieved 10 ducks yesterday on a hunt we went on. Boy these trial dogs make on hell of a gun dog!
 
#106 ·
I would think that amateur vs. pro has been going on since Field Trials started. So much so that they started a stake stricty for amateurs.

Field trials are a little like fly fishing. Mysterious, a little scary to start. Once you get into it and understand things you wonder what all the fuss was about. Of course, there isn't a gallery and two judges watching you fly fish either...
 
#107 ·
I would think that amateur vs. pro has been going on since Field Trials started. So much so that they started a stake stricty for amateurs.
Unfortunately John, some folks found that they could be semi-pro's & still play at the amateur level. & there is no leadership to deal with that :(.
 
#110 · (Edited)
https://www.entryexpress.net/loggedin/viewentries.aspx?eid=5544
http://www.retrievertraining.net/forums/showthread.php?91543-Snowbird-Retriever-Club/page2

Look at the entries and the results of the Snowbird trial, this is what the Q is all about. The Pros and A list Ams finish with the best dogs there that day.............That is how it was meant to be.

If some other dog was better that day they would have placed; no matter who was handling.

THAT is and should be what this game is all about!

Its about the dogs regards,

john
 
#113 ·
As has been stated before, if you're having fun with your dog, in any capacity who's to say what is right or wrong, good or bad. Yes we need more folks in the sport but unless you commit time and resources it can be daunting. I don't care about pro's running against me and I'll tell you why. Nothing is more satisfying then beating a pro at their own game. They bring out the best in me and I relish the competition. Doesn't mean I'll win, place or even finish but to be the best you've got to beat the best and with our training group we've got some pretty heavy hitters. Seeing that confidence and approach to the game gives others in our group a good perspective on how to train/compete within this venue. Yeah more disappointments than rewards but man when you place against a tough field, you just can't beat that feeling. My goals, title my dog (AFC), qualify for a national (30 days late this year, damn). I, like Ted, told Cherylon that I wanted to qualify for a national and I didn't have a clue what that actually required when I said it. I do now and that is where I'd like to be someday. I love this sport, really enjoy my training group and frankly it's like a drug I can't get enough of.

Hopelessly hooked regards.

John M.
 
#114 · (Edited)
Running a dog in minor stakes will not deepen the judging pool, unless of course you are just looking for minor stake judges. The requirements for judging an AA stake are not just take a test any more. Yes we can hope those who handle in the minor stakes get the bug and will continue on to the AA level, but let's be realistic the rate of new people coming up through the ranks is about 2-3 per year if the sport is lucky and then they go on to the AA level, get their rears handed to them one too many times and quit. This game is not for the faint of heart...

Someone told me once the average life expectancy of a FTer wannabe is about 5 years....if a person can make it past 5 they are generally hooked, anything less and they may or may not survive, more than likely they pack up their toys and go home.
 
#115 ·
I agree with John M. as long as folks and dogs are enjoying themselves what is the problem. Those that have no intrest in running their own dog most likley wont become a judge either.

I dont train with a group of heavy hitters and dont even get to train Ft stuff all that often with my own dogs. I do however enjoy going to a trial where the top young dog trucks are entered to see if I can beat them. If I come with one dog and run against their 10 or more and do well I can then speak to the talent and training of my dog. That gives me reason to travel to the few field trials I get to run each year. I have nothing against these ft pros, I have great respect for them which is why it means so much to me to do well while running against them.
 
#116 ·
I think it is fine to encourage people to run their dog. On the other hand, it is a competition, and some people don't like to compete. I know several people who have/had the goal of owning a titled dog. Some had no desire to run the dogs, and some said they wanted to wait til the dog was successful, or even titled before they ran the dog. If thats what they want, thats ok with me.

If someone really wants to participate in field trials, they will. If that means running in the minors, all the way through AA, Good. If that means running AA stakes once the dog gets there, again, Good. If they don't want to participate, and just pay a pro, well, thats fine too. You can't make people want to compete.
 
#121 ·
If a person is afraid of the level of competition that exists in the minors, they will probably not thrive in the upper levels and will soon be gone.
 
#120 ·
If "ifs" and "buts" were candy and nuts, we'd all have a merry Christmas.


 
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