"Contrary Throws" A Thing Of the Past???

[Glenn Norton]

When I 1st started in the Field Trial game, I used to hear lots of complaints in the gallery about "contrary throws". Over the past couple of years, I note that at most Trials you see contrary throws all the time in Senior stakes and some in the Qual and Derby.
In training, we now throw many contrary throws, as do many of the Pro Trainers.

2 questions:

Is there any such thing as a contrary throw any longer? Do you believe that incorparating contrary throws into your training program will hinder the dogs long term?

[jacduck]

Can you define contrary throw for me? I know what I think it is but sometimes ......

[Glenn Norton]

In throws, up the shore vs down the shore, swim by the gun vs swim short of the gun, cossover marks, out of order flyers. The list is long and varied.
In the past it was swim by, angle back throws, flyers shot last.

Can you define contrary throw for me? I know what I think it is but sometimes ......

[RookieTrainer]

Possibly exposing my ignorance, but isn't a contrary throw a mark that would be contrary to a dog's training? Like staring at the water and not getting in for the mark, in spite of all the swim-by and de-cheating stuff we do that essentially says to the dog "if you are looking at water, get in."

[John Robinson]

Possibly exposing my ignorance, but isn't a contrary throw a mark that would be contrary to a dog's training? Like staring at the water and not getting in for the mark, in spite of all the swim-by and de-cheating stuff we do that essentially says to the dog "if you are looking at water, get in."

No, you pretty much nailed it in a nutshell.

Glen, I still believe it's a bad idea to throw contrary marks in the minor stakes. It just seems unfair to take advantage of young dogs in this way. I believe that once in the all age anything goes, but as you well know, the easiest thing in the world to do is to trick a young dog that is trying to be good and make the right decision. I haven't run a minor stake in a few years, but when I did, I don't remember it being done. I like neutral marks, marks where there is no obvious trained response, such as water marks thrown across water rather than down the shore.


ps, I was fun running under you at Charlo, haven't seen you in a long time. I still have those black handling gloves you gave me when Yoda was a derby dog down in the desert around 2000.
John

[Jacob Hawkes]

Yes, contrary marks are thrown in minor stakes. There are also tests that leave you uttering certain explicatives. It is what it is.

[steve schreiner]

Possibly exposing my ignorance, but isn't a contrary throw a mark that would be contrary to a dog's training? Like staring at the water and not getting in for the mark, in spite of all the swim-by and de-cheating stuff we do that essentially says to the dog "if you are looking at water, get in."

When ever I hear things like this I begin to think we have a scripted way we do things...just like an ob ring where it is always the same...It just means (to me ) that we have to train for anything possible ...back in the days a poison bird was left on the ground and not picked up in FT's ...It was easy to teach a dog to stay off it ...but ..when he has to go back and pick it up training must change..When all things are possible training has to change too...The training scope must get bigger then ...not so limited on the exercise you will see at an event....Steve S

[Ted Shih]

When ever I hear things like this I begin to think we have a scripted way we do things...just like an ob ring where it is always the same...It just means (to me ) that we have to train for anything possible ...back in the days a poison bird was left on the ground and not picked up in FT's ...It was easy to teach a dog to stay off it ...but ..when he has to go back and pick it up training must change..When all things are possible training has to change too...The training scope must get bigger then ...not so limited on the exercise you will see at an event....Steve S

I disagree.

First, just because something is okay (and I use that word advisedly) in the Open, does not make it okay in the minor stakes

Second, we are supposed to be evaluating a dog's ability to mark. Fundamentally, this means that they should be able to: 1) See the guns; 2) See the birds; and 3) See the fall. When you throw a bird straight back (say to 12 o'clock) or straight in (say to 6 o'clock), you offer the dog no opportunity to mark the depth of a bird.

Third, when I judge a dog, I would like the winner to have qualities that I admire, not qualities that I detest. When you throw a bird in front of water, you are assisting the dog who does not want to get into the water in finding the bird. That is not a dog I want on my truck.

And spare me the homilies about a good dog should mark a bird where ever it may fall - to me that is nothing more than an excuse for sloth or poor wit.

If you want to find out if a dog can mark - not just swim to the end of a channel, throw a bird where a dog must take water, but get out of the water without taking the purely trained response of channeling.