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Thread: Young noisy fire breathing dog

  1. #51
    Senior Member TBell's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Randy Bohn View Post
    I watched the puppy come in for training 4 to 5 days a week for months, hardest part was not really knowing if the basics were solid but was 99% sure they were...
    AGE: PRE 6 MONTHS
    I watched the owners get yanked to the line for marks...(pup is running the show)
    I watched the dog get pulled off the line back to the truck..(pup is to intense to be taught?)
    I heard the dog barking in the truck when the owner would get another one of their dogs out to work..(intensity or disobedient towards owners??)
    I watched the dog airing away from the line on a rope while other dogs are working...(pup didn't care one bit about the other dogs working at that time)
    My attitude towards the pup prior to 6 months was that he was crazy to retrieve but I was not willing to do anything about it yet. Life for him was retrieving...retrieving..retrieving...he was the man to say the least! to be continued
    Quote Originally Posted by Randy Bohn View Post
    AGE: 6 months to present(10 months)
    Noise got to be worse so as the owner was taking the pup thru the program all marks for a period of time were surprise marks..meaning as the dog and owner came around the side of the truck towards the line as soon as the dog saw the thrower they threw the bumper(dog doesn't have time to anticipate the retrieve)
    Noise went away when we did that...(took his mind out of the trained response, see bumper make noise)
    If the dog had a genetic noise problem he would have barked anytime he was sent to retrieve or as soon as he saw the gunner but he didn't, so I went back to the original thought that the pup was running the show which is a real easy fix..to be continued...
    Goes back to my theory of more early obedience training for a high, vocal pup than marks. MARKS, MARKS, MARKS are just like giving a kid candy every time they go to school.

    Imagine if they started training pup with obedience and very few retrieved marks at home. Marks are a very small part of the 'Balanced' or 'Total' retriever if you will. Many marks can be thrown with very few retrieves in order to teach patience and obedience.

    On days that they came to 'school'......more obedience around truck, around other trucks and people. NO CANDY, or I mean MARKS. This sort of 'off site training' goes on several times before an actual MARK is ever thrown for the pup until it is calm and controllable around others.

    Walk pup to the line several times just to watch others calmly, so it learns that each trip to line does not get CANDY. Only when pup can sit and watch mark thrown calmly and quietly does it actually get to retrieve.

    For dogs who are already out of control going to line and on the line, this will also work wonders. Back to basics to regain control. Dog must learn that they are not in control. Only when they have complied with master's wishes does he get CANDY!

  2. #52
    Senior Member DarrinGreene's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TBell View Post
    Goes back to my theory of more early obedience training for a high, vocal pup than marks. MARKS, MARKS, MARKS are just like giving a kid candy every time they go to school.

    Imagine if they started training pup with obedience and very few retrieved marks at home. Marks are a very small part of the 'Balanced' or 'Total' retriever if you will. Many marks can be thrown with very few retrieves in order to teach patience and obedience.

    On days that they came to 'school'......more obedience around truck, around other trucks and people. NO CANDY, or I mean MARKS. This sort of 'off site training' goes on several times before an actual MARK is ever thrown for the pup until it is calm and controllable around others.

    Walk pup to the line several times just to watch others calmly, so it learns that each trip to line does not get CANDY. Only when pup can sit and watch mark thrown calmly and quietly does it actually get to retrieve.

    For dogs who are already out of control going to line and on the line, this will also work wonders. Back to basics to regain control. Dog must learn that they are not in control. Only when they have complied with master's wishes does he get CANDY!
    I personally think all you're doing here with a young one is setting yourself up to have a dog that is out of control at a trial.
    Darrin Greene

  3. #53
    Senior Member TBell's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DarrinGreene View Post
    I personally think all you're doing here with a young one is setting yourself up to have a dog that is out of control at a trial.
    Quite the opposite actually. BEFORE I did this my dogs were out of control at trials and I've run quite a few dogs and trials......unfortunately I have years of experience with high, vocal dogs.

    Doesn't take long on EE to do a little research.
    https://www.entryexpress.net/LoggedI...h&q=Tammy+Bell

    or the AKC Judges directory
    http://classic.akc.org/judges_directory/

    My dogs now walk to the line and sit nicely.

    Bad line manners are no fun, and unfortunately I've had a lot of experience with it.
    Last edited by TBell; 12-06-2012 at 10:22 AM.

  4. #54
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    It's funny that Randy mentions Running with the Devil dogs. Mine is a grandchild and she is a whiner in the hunting blind, but quiets right up when birds are working. She is a whiner in the holding blind, but started to develop a yelp when marks were going down. We started immediately with noise control, and it's still not gone. I basically gave up on an tests, and conceded that maybe when she's older and better trained I could start again.

  5. #55
    Senior Member Gun_Dog2002's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer Henion View Post
    You guys need to get Goldens - end of story!!!

    signed,
    Helpy Helperson
    Yep. Instant quiet. Just add water.

    /Paul
    Paul Cantrell
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  6. #56
    Senior Member Becky Mills's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gun_Dog2002 View Post
    Yep. Instant quiet. Just add water.

    /Paul
    Oh you evil thing
    Don't bother to just be better than your contemporaries or predecessors. Try to be better than yourself.
    William Faulkner

  7. #57
    Senior Member Bridget Bodine's Avatar
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    There were some funnies!!
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    Sight To Sea's Take Aim SH (by Sight to Sea's Southern Comfort SH )Aug 23 2003-Feb 2013 Go get em , Man!

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  8. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by DarrinGreene View Post
    I personally think all you're doing here with a young one is setting yourself up to have a dog that is out of control at a trial.
    Why?......

  9. #59

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    Quote Originally Posted by TBell View Post
    Goes back to my theory of more early obedience training for a high, vocal pup than marks. MARKS, MARKS, MARKS are just like giving a kid candy every time they go to school.

    Imagine if they started training pup with obedience and very few retrieved marks at home. Marks are a very small part of the 'Balanced' or 'Total' retriever if you will. Many marks can be thrown with very few retrieves in order to teach patience and obedience.

    On days that they came to 'school'......more obedience around truck, around other trucks and people. NO CANDY, or I mean MARKS. This sort of 'off site training' goes on several times before an actual MARK is ever thrown for the pup until it is calm and controllable around others.

    Walk pup to the line several times just to watch others calmly, so it learns that each trip to line does not get CANDY. Only when pup can sit and watch mark thrown calmly and quietly does it actually get to retrieve.

    For dogs who are already out of control going to line and on the line, this will also work wonders. Back to basics to regain control. Dog must learn that they are not in control. Only when they have complied with master's wishes does he get CANDY!
    In terms of the part of your post that I bolded, I think about it quite differently. For me, it's not at all about the dog learning that it's not in control. The dog always has a choice, especially when you're standing there on the line or on an honor with the dog off leash. I want my dog to learn that SELF control is the ONLY route to getting the retrieve. I think good training involves enhancing the odds that the dog will make the choice you want. For the very young pup, I don't think of it as obedience, but rather the pup learning that quiet self control is the gateway to what it desires in life. You do this by allowing the pup to make choices and learn that different behavioral choices have different consequences. Of course, you carefully control the consequences so that the pup is reinforced only for the choices you like, and not reinforced for the choices you don't like.

    I started playing Susan Garrett's "Crate Games" with my pup the day she came home. Crate Games is a really well thought out protocol for teaching a pup that their behavioral choices have consequences, and that self-control leads to good things. The pup learns that sitting quietly in its crate after the door is opened is what makes its release word happen. You never ask them to sit. You go through a series of steps that conditions the pup to offer a quiet sit. Then, if the pup lunges forward or moves a paw as you're opening the door or after you open it, you simply close the crate door. The pup learns very quickly what it needs to do.

    My pup also learned that sitting quietly made me put her food dish on the floor, while bouncing around made it go away; same deal for going outside, getting a toy, and so on. I never asked her to sit, just let her make the choice. So from day 1 the key lesson she was learning was that sitting quietly got her what she wanted. Any other behavior got her nothing. You have to be obsessive about controlling your pup's access to reinforcement, so they're only reinforced for the behavior you like, but it's really not hard. You also need to set and maintain criteria. It's actually fun for the pup, because they learn it's easy to get what they want....all they have to do is sit quietly. They learn quickly because they get immediate feedback on their behavioral choices. You've begun to establish the foundation for self control as a life-long habit.

    Everything else my pup has learned has built on the foundation established with these little puppy learning games. I'll admit that what I'm doing is a first-time experiment for me, but I really like the results I'm getting.
    Last edited by sixpacklabs; 12-06-2012 at 04:20 PM.

  10. #60
    Senior Member John Lash's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gun_Dog2002 View Post
    Yep. Instant quiet. Just add water.

    /Paul
    Nice......
    John Lash

    "If you run Field Trials, you learn to swallow your disappointment quickly."

    "Field trials are not a game for good dogs. They're for great dogs with great training." E. Graham

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