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Thread: Young noisy fire breathing dog

  1. #91
    Senior Member RookieTrainer's Avatar
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    Randy, thanks for your advice on this. I am going to incorporate your ideas into my routine for sure.

    As an overarching principle, would it be correct to say that you put the responsibility for compliance on the dog? For example, it seems you would give a command once, possibly with a light or moderate correction, and then wait the dog out until he complies. Is this the basic sequence added to a boatload of patience and waiting over several days?

    Additionally, do you use a marker ("good dog") to indicate your desired behavior to the dog? Or do you send immediately upon compliance? If so, how do you begin to extend the time for compliance?
    Last edited by RookieTrainer; 12-08-2012 at 09:49 AM.

  2. #92
    Senior Member 2tall's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Criquetpas View Post
    One of the problem areas in field trials anyway most of these "ground pounders or Firebreathers" are great markers. We as amateur trainers like those ribbons. The trial game is very difficult at best and we start them off in the minor stakes (derby) we win or place and put them on the Derby List. We deal with the creeping, noise, not heeling to the line etc the best we can. We make them "test wise" now we want to fix it after all that excitement over a two year period. We watch while they do none of the antics in training, so we have nothing to work on except toenail moves dog gets corrected (slight movement in inches because feet in trial) We bust dog on the butt with the stick, we bring dog to the line, any noise dog gets put up, we stake dog out while other dogs work, we shoot many flyers, we use popper guns, we train in large groups to duplicate trial/test conditons and the list goes on and on. We go to the trial on the weekend and maybe get a few series in without problems, then the roof caves in by Sunday (especially in the all-age) but we are winning the trial. We take our ribbon and we think it's really great until the following weekend, then it starts all over again. More pressure is applied, dog starts sticking on birds(push in one area something else comes out) dog now runs out of the holding blind to the line leaving you standing trying to heel, heel, here here , your dog. You finaly get the the line and maybe the dog smacks the marks or the hampsters run around in the cage and the dog doesn't see anything but the flyer.

    The above can be applied to the Hunt Test game too. I have been there and done that many times with some truley great dogs including one National Open Finalist. I just wonder how many of those 2nd places or JAMS were really wins but, due to line manners, noise, etc. well you will never no. I just don't seem to learn, but now I am a old man and have a young talented Derby dog who has run one derby and was pulled in the third series because I didn't like her demeanor! I may never run her in another Derby and just train for the all-age until she is ready to run. Maybe I have learned my lesson after all these years and maybe not I sure love those ribbons!

    Randy has the best advice and obviously is very sucessful , start young keep the standard up and get to know what you have or get a experienced amateur or professional to evaluate. There is a difference between a puppy whine with excitement or whinning as they go for the bird vrs a very potential serious noise problem . That Derby, Junior, Started don't mean nothing if the risk is great down the road.
    One man's opinion.
    Wow! What a "spot on" post! I do believe Earl watched me and Indy from day one! No we didn't do the derbies, dog was almost two before training started, but by golly we chased that JH title and every other thing we could do. Its the trainer that has to get control over their own desires and emotions before you can expect the same control in the dog. I finally tried the method described by Randy when I was training with Sharon Potter. It definitely works. But Indy is too far gone and too trial wise so that as soon as we head for the line, he's driving the train again. I have trained my young dog using Hillman's method, and never needed stick, nick or tricks. He is really well mannered at the line, but alas, no where near the marker or as much drive as the others. Sadly I have found there is no such thing as a "do over" because no two dogs are going to have the same skills or problems. Hey, anybody tried cloning to get a second chance????
    Carol,
    Owned and handled by Cruisin' with Indiana Jones, JH
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    http://newhoperetrievers.com

  3. #93
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    I put Randy's original post and his subsequent replies into a word document for my training binder. PM me if you would like a copy. Thanks for the lesson Randy!

  4. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by TBell View Post


    Darren, I went and watched the 'Michael Ellis' videos and was very impressed. What a beautiful world it would be for our young fire breathing dragons to learn without whips and e-collars. His statement in the video that the easiest dogs to train were the high ones. Wow! The idea of turning the high prey drive around and working for you instead of against you would be amazing. I hope you can teach me how to train a competitive retriever one day with those methods!
    I think Michael Ellis is the best dog trainer out there making his stuff public. I have a very high dog and used his principles to train my dog as a pup during obedience. I think his style of training is very applicable to retrievers but I am not experienced enough to implement it other than around the line. I know it would likely never happen but I would love for a guy like Ellis to get together with a top retriever pro for a few years and see what they came up with.

    His two videos that I have are definitely worth checking out (The Power of Training Dogs with Food and Advanced Concepts in Motivation). Oh, and Ellis is an advocate of the ecollar and does use it in his training. He has a story in his free videos about his training evolution from early collar use, subsequent postive only training, and why he returned to using some aversives.

    Here's his link if anyone is interested http://michaelellisschool.com/videos.htm

  5. #95
    Senior Member DarrinGreene's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TBell View Post

    Wow! The idea of turning the high prey drive around and working for you instead of against you would be amazing. I hope you can teach me how to train a competitive retriever one day with those methods!

    That is where our problem lies with testing and our dogs getting out of control or 'test wise'. Since we rely so heavily on collars to train our dogs, when the collar is 'off' all weekend at a test or trial the high dogs come unglued. I am finding that the better teacher/trainer that I become, the less I need to use the e-collar.

    Good training and good thread. I, like Randy, am willing to help. If you are in my area, come by and train!
    I almost missed this Tammy. Just a couple of brief comments in reply to it.

    I really think that the principals you see in Ellis's video's are applicable to our dogs when they are young. Imagine having your retriever as well trained as Lindsay's Mal in that video before you get too far into the retriever aspect. That dog is working for HER, doing what she wants to earn his prizes. He'd very high in drive during that video, yet extremely focused on her the whole time. Imagine transferring that team play over into the field.

    I'll never be the guy to show you or anyone else how to train a competitive retriever that way. I am training one right now using a lot of that stuff as a basis, but then moving into a more Carr based system from there. It will be a long time before Darrin Greene's retriever training is ever the newest rage. Hell will likely freeze over first, in fact.

    In the meantime, I like discussing ideas in a positive way with people, and those methods certainly leave people with a lot of ideas.

    Like I said, the experienced among us won't change, and I don't blame them. I don't fix what works either.

    I do think there's value for a lot of RTF readers though, because I think for the guy whose done a dog or two, creating a basis that avoids some of the issues this thread addresses is probably a good thing.

    As I said to Randy earlier, I KNOW he's equipped to deal with the pup and it makes sense for HIM or someone like him to let pup develop to a point where the approach doesn't cause problems. I think, as he said though, that some less experienced folk might crush a pup trying to fix a problem, so if thinking a bit differently would help them to avoid it, then awesome.

    When I title my first dog I'll call ya! Until then, it's just a view point to think about.
    Darrin Greene

  6. #96
    Senior Member DarrinGreene's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dpate View Post
    I think Michael Ellis is the best dog trainer out there making his stuff public. I have a very high dog and used his principles to train my dog as a pup during obedience. I think his style of training is very applicable to retrievers but I am not experienced enough to implement it other than around the line. I know it would likely never happen but I would love for a guy like Ellis to get together with a top retriever pro for a few years and see what they came up with.

    His two videos that I have are definitely worth checking out (The Power of Training Dogs with Food and Advanced Concepts in Motivation). Oh, and Ellis is an advocate of the ecollar and does use it in his training. He has a story in his free videos about his training evolution from early collar use, subsequent postive only training, and why he returned to using some aversives.

    Here's his link if anyone is interested http://michaelellisschool.com/videos.htm
    look up Bernard Flink and some of the other Schutzund and French Ring guys too. There are a lot of different ways to skin the same cat.
    Darrin Greene

  7. #97
    Senior Member Mary Lynn Metras's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RetrieverNation View Post
    I put Randy's original post and his subsequent replies into a word document for my training binder. PM me if you would like a copy. Thanks for the lesson Randy!
    I did the same thing only my folder is on the computer.
    Randy that was excellent! Thanks. Will be talking with you!!
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  8. #98
    Senior Member Randy Bohn's Avatar
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    I should clarify also that the puppy fix program is alot different than the older dog program, we call it the 12 step program here and each step must be done 100% before moving on to the next step. Pam made a good observation with children in stores..stop this stop that blah blah blah, same with our dogs we train, which here or sit do you mean??
    In the past few years we've rehabbed a bunch of dogs back into the competition world BUT there were a few that only could go so far because of their past. I remember one we fixed up (Running With The Devil Female ) she was like a volcano, she was high maintenance and I don't mean maybe and the owner decided to retire her. Another was just sold, she was trial smart with tons of go but trained well. Most dogs run competitive Qual. work and if they have the talent move on to the AA level.The dogs who didn't get to where the owners wanted to be had a real bad beginning childhood...sit sit sit sit here here here...or they had JR.hunt titles by 8 months of age before the good solid foundation was in place.
    CHRIS ATKINSON...PLEASE don't QUIT CHANGING MY PROFILE PAGE!!

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  9. #99
    Senior Member gdgnyc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Randy Bohn View Post
    I should clarify also that the puppy fix program is alot different than the older dog program, we call it the 12 step program here and each step must be done 100% before moving on to the next step. Pam made a good observation with children in stores..stop this stop that blah blah blah, same with our dogs we train, which here or sit do you mean??
    In the past few years we've rehabbed a bunch of dogs back into the competition world BUT there were a few that only could go so far because of their past. I remember one we fixed up (Running With The Devil Female ) she was like a volcano, she was high maintenance and I don't mean maybe and the owner decided to retire her. Another was just sold, she was trial smart with tons of go but trained well. Most dogs run competitive Qual. work and if they have the talent move on to the AA level.The dogs who didn't get to where the owners wanted to be had a real bad beginning childhood...sit sit sit sit here here here...or they had JR.hunt titles by 8 months of age before the good solid foundation was in place.
    I think you're saying an awful lot about where people go wrong in building their foundation with their dogs.
    "I love the rod and gun and where they take me."

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  10. #100
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    I would like a copy of what you have. Couldn't PM you for some reason.

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