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Young noisy fire breathing dog

66K views 112 replies 51 participants last post by  CashCat 
#1 ·
Seems like alot of people have the same issues with their dogs...NOISE!!! I bought into a litter as did some of my clients last Feb. knowing some of us would be having to address noise issues....the time has come...

1) So...the dog is 10 months of age...noisy and crazy...
2) Going thru the yard program at the sit to a pile stage..
3) Must do something to fix the noise now or we may lose the dog totally...
4) Only using bumpers for retrieving NO BIRDS yet, afraid of what may happen!!

WHAT DO YOU DO NEXT?? Could anybody give me a step by step process to the fix?? Randy
 
#40 ·
I watched the puppy come in for training 4 to 5 days a week for months, hardest part was not really knowing if the basics were solid but was 99% sure they were...
AGE: PRE 6 MONTHS
I watched the owners get yanked to the line for marks...(pup is running the show)
I watched the dog get pulled off the line back to the truck..(pup is to intense to be taught?)
I heard the dog barking in the truck when the owner would get another one of their dogs out to work..(intensity or disobedient towards owners??)
I watched the dog airing away from the line on a rope while other dogs are working...(pup didn't care one bit about the other dogs working at that time)
My attitude towards the pup prior to 6 months was that he was crazy to retrieve but I was not willing to do anything about it yet. Life for him was retrieving...retrieving..retrieving...he was the man to say the least! to be continued
 
#51 ·
I watched the puppy come in for training 4 to 5 days a week for months, hardest part was not really knowing if the basics were solid but was 99% sure they were...
AGE: PRE 6 MONTHS
I watched the owners get yanked to the line for marks...(pup is running the show)
I watched the dog get pulled off the line back to the truck..(pup is to intense to be taught?)
I heard the dog barking in the truck when the owner would get another one of their dogs out to work..(intensity or disobedient towards owners??)
I watched the dog airing away from the line on a rope while other dogs are working...(pup didn't care one bit about the other dogs working at that time)
My attitude towards the pup prior to 6 months was that he was crazy to retrieve but I was not willing to do anything about it yet. Life for him was retrieving...retrieving..retrieving...he was the man to say the least! to be continued
AGE: 6 months to present(10 months)
Noise got to be worse so as the owner was taking the pup thru the program all marks for a period of time were surprise marks..meaning as the dog and owner came around the side of the truck towards the line as soon as the dog saw the thrower they threw the bumper(dog doesn't have time to anticipate the retrieve)
Noise went away when we did that...(took his mind out of the trained response, see bumper make noise)
If the dog had a genetic noise problem he would have barked anytime he was sent to retrieve or as soon as he saw the gunner but he didn't, so I went back to the original thought that the pup was running the show which is a real easy fix..to be continued...
Goes back to my theory of more early obedience training for a high, vocal pup than marks. MARKS, MARKS, MARKS are just like giving a kid candy every time they go to school.

Imagine if they started training pup with obedience and very few retrieved marks at home. Marks are a very small part of the 'Balanced' or 'Total' retriever if you will. Many marks can be thrown with very few retrieves in order to teach patience and obedience.

On days that they came to 'school'......more obedience around truck, around other trucks and people. NO CANDY, or I mean MARKS. This sort of 'off site training' goes on several times before an actual MARK is ever thrown for the pup until it is calm and controllable around others.

Walk pup to the line several times just to watch others calmly, so it learns that each trip to line does not get CANDY. Only when pup can sit and watch mark thrown calmly and quietly does it actually get to retrieve.

For dogs who are already out of control going to line and on the line, this will also work wonders. Back to basics to regain control. Dog must learn that they are not in control. Only when they have complied with master's wishes does he get CANDY!
 
#94 ·
Darren, I went and watched the 'Michael Ellis' videos and was very impressed. What a beautiful world it would be for our young fire breathing dragons to learn without whips and e-collars. His statement in the video that the easiest dogs to train were the high ones. Wow! The idea of turning the high prey drive around and working for you instead of against you would be amazing. I hope you can teach me how to train a competitive retriever one day with those methods!
I think Michael Ellis is the best dog trainer out there making his stuff public. I have a very high dog and used his principles to train my dog as a pup during obedience. I think his style of training is very applicable to retrievers but I am not experienced enough to implement it other than around the line. I know it would likely never happen but I would love for a guy like Ellis to get together with a top retriever pro for a few years and see what they came up with.

His two videos that I have are definitely worth checking out (The Power of Training Dogs with Food and Advanced Concepts in Motivation). Oh, and Ellis is an advocate of the ecollar and does use it in his training. He has a story in his free videos about his training evolution from early collar use, subsequent postive only training, and why he returned to using some aversives.

Here's his link if anyone is interested http://michaelellisschool.com/videos.htm
 
#96 ·
I think Michael Ellis is the best dog trainer out there making his stuff public. I have a very high dog and used his principles to train my dog as a pup during obedience. I think his style of training is very applicable to retrievers but I am not experienced enough to implement it other than around the line. I know it would likely never happen but I would love for a guy like Ellis to get together with a top retriever pro for a few years and see what they came up with.

His two videos that I have are definitely worth checking out (The Power of Training Dogs with Food and Advanced Concepts in Motivation). Oh, and Ellis is an advocate of the ecollar and does use it in his training. He has a story in his free videos about his training evolution from early collar use, subsequent postive only training, and why he returned to using some aversives.

Here's his link if anyone is interested http://michaelellisschool.com/videos.htm
look up Bernard Flink and some of the other Schutzund and French Ring guys too. There are a lot of different ways to skin the same cat.
 
#43 ·
My answer is you and Sammy need to get chessies and then let your wife train them. She's a good handler.
 
#44 ·
AGE: 6 months to present(10 months)
Noise got to be worse so as the owner was taking the pup thru the program all marks for a period of time were surprise marks..meaning as the dog and owner came around the side of the truck towards the line as soon as the dog saw the thrower they threw the bumper(dog doesn't have time to anticipate the retrieve)
Noise went away when we did that...(took his mind out of the trained response, see bumper make noise)
If the dog had a genetic noise problem he would have barked anytime he was sent to retrieve or as soon as he saw the gunner but he didn't, so I went back to the original thought that the pup was running the show which is a real easy fix..to be continued...
 
#45 ·
AGE: 6 months to present(10 months)
Noise got to be worse so as the owner was taking the pup thru the program all marks for a period of time were surprise marks..meaning as the dog and owner came around the side of the truck towards the line as soon as the dog saw the thrower they threw the bumper(dog doesn't have time to anticipate the retrieve)
Noise went away when we did that...(took his mind out of the trained response, see bumper make noise)
If the dog had a genetic noise problem he would have barked anytime he was sent to retrieve or as soon as he saw the gunner but he didn't, so I went back to the original thought that the pup was running the show which is a real easy fix..to be continued...
Great point, Randy! many people don't even stop to analyze noise like this....
 
#47 ·
I agree with Darrin, absolutely nothing if there is noise-a small whine counts as noise. If I can hear it and it came from his mouth, everything stops and we go back to square one of whatever we were dealing with.

I had a lot of fun with this around my property when he was a teenager-he would give me this horrible, loud bark to get me to hurry up and I would instantly turn around and go inside shutting the door in his face. I still do it in regards to my back yard or gates to pastures etc, if he's behind a gate and I start walking towards it-if he barks, I turn and go the other direction. Usually by the third repetition, he is quiet even if the others are barking. Just cracks me up. It's way too late to stop my shelties from barking, and they don't do field work anyway-but that little lab better be quiet or he's not getting ANYTHING from me.
 
#50 ·
RND there were 8 in the litter and I get to see 5 almost everyday of my life...interesting how the 2 males with me full time act alike and the 2 females that I actually own act alike BUT the boys and girls are worlds apart. The one other male(on this thread) is totally different than all the rest so far. The pups are all crazy to retrieve but sensitive, combination I don't get to see alot. The hardest dogs I ever had to fix for noise were Runnin With The Devil and Chavez dogs..WOW WOW WOW..The overall approach was a combination of watching the littermates......more to come
 
#54 ·
It's funny that Randy mentions Running with the Devil dogs. Mine is a grandchild and she is a whiner in the hunting blind, but quiets right up when birds are working. She is a whiner in the holding blind, but started to develop a yelp when marks were going down. We started immediately with noise control, and it's still not gone. I basically gave up on an tests, and conceded that maybe when she's older and better trained I could start again.
 
#57 ·
There were some funnies!!
 
#62 ·
If your basic program obedience is good at home meaning here is here, sit is sit, heel is heel then it's time to take it to the field. Most people in the dog world cause their own noise and out of control issues because of multiple commands starting at home. 15 years ago when I first started training dogs the big question in the dog world was do you keep your dogs in the house or out?? Reason?? Because people drop standards in the house...

Caution...there are two sides of the fence in a pups brain the fun side and the other side where we teach cc,ff, etc. If you start combining both worlds in the field to quickly you will ruin a young dogs attitude.
Appr. 7 days ago the fix process began....more to come
 
#63 ·
Darrin,

It really is very individual from dog to dog. You have to balance tests and training with behavior. Poor behavior stop testing....immediately. This means moving just one foot!

Randy,

Yes, very hard to differentiate in the dogs mind between obedience and being a house dog. It is an extreme balancing act. Attitude also comes from 'balance' between field work and obedience. I am still a newbie at this, but I think I have a better grasp.
 
#64 ·
The dog apparently had no respect for the owner so I made the dog aware that we actually did exist in the retrieving world:

1) DO NOT let your dog push and rush you to get the collar on his/her neck..jump out of the truck and take off running around being a bad citizen...We made the pup sit calmly first and then collar went on him, when he decided to become unruly the process started over again until the pup gave in and sat in a calm attentive way. People always ask how long did that take to accomplish?? Patience...as long as it takes is the answer, why do you think people use harsh methods to accomplish this?? ...why don't majority of pro trainers tackle hard cases like noise?? TIME!!! Control your temper and realize that your in for a battle of wills, had 1 dog come in for line and noise issues and it took him 45 minutes to figure out he wasn't going to get away with not sitting in remote position 4 ft. from me on a leash..
 
#65 ·
Step 2) New standards applied around the truck.. It was called sit and do nothing until your quiet..off the truck it's time to rock and roll in his world...Gave him the command of sit and walked away a few feet and of course he got up..took control of the dog and gave a sit correction, what level is up to you and your dog in the field to accomplish what you wanted him to do in the first place.. This has to be done 100% or your wasting time...dog thinks he won again.
Once we won the initial battle of sit,stay we walked farther away from him and of course obedience fell apart again...so back to the point of failure and a sit correction given again...Keep in mind your goal IS NOT to get marks until your dog is paying attention to you so your first day out may or may not be a marking day for your dog.
 
#70 ·
Step 4) Proceed at a heel towards the line when the dog settles down, as long as the dog remains under control take him to the line BUT put him in the honor box. You can stay with the dog or sit down nearby up to the individual. Same rules apply no moving..creeping...breaking..if he makes noise (and he will) ignore it, it will go away and hopefully quicker than the last time. When he behaves walk over to the dog and pretend that it's his turn to retrieve and when he becomes animated go into obedience mode, 360 degree heel drills, back up, side step,anything where he has to pay attention to you and not the excitement in the field. High standards apply here for sure, collar by your knee at all times. When you made your point return him to the honor box and sit down nearby and watch the dogs reaction...priceless...oh yeah still no bats or whips, all mental break down for the dog...Boot Camp!! to be continued...
 
#75 ·
Randy,

Thanks for the step by step! Very informative!
 
#76 ·
Step 5) Most important thing to watch for is a change in the dogs attitude, is he still fighting you or did you really break him down?
After this puppy calmed down we walked him under control to the truck and put him away for a few minutes, went thru the same process again from the truck to the honor box doing obedience and making sure the dog is now considering the owner a part of the team...if they don't watch or pay attention to you the battle is being lost by you. When the puppy was calm we pretended that the next working dog was going to run, pup on honor mat, working dog on mat and shot the marks. Mentally the pup said that mark isn't for me it's for the other dog, proceeded to send the puppy and guess what??? Noise was gone!! We took him out of his element and put him back into ours. Received him with a nice slow and controlled delivery and shot another mark, he whined a little and we immediately went into obedience mode and put him back to the state of mind of paying attention to the handler.Working dog came back shot another mark and the puppy was quiet so the owner sent the dog. Piece of cake...
 
#77 ·
Step 6) If this is all new to you make sure all steps are 100% before moving on!!!
Always use the same chaining of events from now on, your group has to understand that you need your space awhile so your dog may not get marks till you and the dog are aligned. If you have to work on obedience take your dog out to the station with you and while your shooting and throwing make him do a sit and stay, shooting flyers while your dog is at a sit is awesome obedience work. Who do you think would win that battle of wills, you or your dog??
That's pretty much the story of our little crazy 10 month old puppy, that process took about 7 days to complete, the first few steps if it's your first challenging dog can be mentally demanding to say the least. more to come...
 
#78 · (Edited)
My fire breather became vocal at 6 months (last April) right about the time the formal obedience started. She was always quiet and steady up to this point on marks. At a marking session, she got some really nice exciting retrieves and was totally quiet & steady. The next she was vocal at the line which continued all summer. Knowing that this is the worst possible nightmare to have, I started researching and trying different methods to eliminate the noise. After working on this all summer (very frustrating), the noise appears to be gone. What appears to have worked for me was (1) Total obedience, in the house, in the yard and in the field. I hold her and myself to a high standard. Sit, here & heel.This includes walking out the door, entering/exiting the vehicle, walking to the holding blind, etc. (2) Lots of single marks, any noise, no retrieve. I also used Lardy's method of 4-5 single marks with noise, and then one more mark with no noise. She would be vocal on the marks with noise, but however it works, she would be quiet on the last mark and I would then send her. By doing this, I was able to create an atmosphere to train in and teach her what I wanted. (3) NO TESTS. As much as I wanted to, knowing she could compete, I didn't. I was working too hard to eliminate this problem. I had also decided to let her mature some.
As she progressed and got better, I decided to take her dove hunting in September with my older dog to see where I was at in the training. If she got vocal, she wouldn't hunt the rest of the fall. Both dogs honored and were steady with no problems. Because of no calling of doves, the shots were not expected by the dogs and she wouldn't have a chance to think about the mark. Also with my numerous misses, the dogs were surrounded by excitement. Every now and then I got lucky and shot a dove and would then send one of the dogs. She whined quietly once, received a "sit" correction, then shut up and has not whined since. Even in training, she has not whined on marks. I decided to duck hunt in October with her, this time calling. Here again, plenty of noise and numerous misses, no noisefrom her. When I did get lucky, she got the retrieve. I have not had any noise since early September. What she has learned is that not every mark is hers and if she is quiet, she will get a retrieve. Now, I do not consider her fixed, as I will be running her in tests next spring. I already plan on pulling her at the line if she gets vocal, time will tell. Hope this helps.
 
#79 ·
Bottom line for most noise and line issues are the owners, we all love our dogs but when we work we work when we play we play. Amateur time is crucial but don't put the retrieve before obedience if you have issues with the dog already.
Young dogs with noise issues you must be careful with, there is no dvd or tape that teaches you how to read dogs, I've seen people really hammer down on pups and they don't forget.
Older dogs that need to be rehabbed are just plain thick headed, usually they have been allowed to become what you really don't want them to be for so long it's a trained response for them.
I wrote down a list of dogs that I've had come in to be rehabbed in the past 6 years and out of the appr. 30 dogs thru here 1/3 of them were Running With The Devil lines, tough tough dogs. If you have one of those dogs high standards are a must, BUT when you get them repaired they're a beautiful sight to watch and to run.
I had one private email sent that said his dog marks better when he doesn't get corrected with a whiffle ball bat on line...probably right but if you got hammered with a bat you couldn't do your job properly either. Are you fixing the problem or putting a band aid on the problem using a whip or bat??
Good Luck everyone...it's not that hard just dig in your heels and be more stubborn than your dog...Randy
 
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#81 ·
How did your dog react with a stick across the chest? Look at the Farmer-Aycock DVD. Farmer gets the hind end of the dog. I did across the chest one time and definitely did not like the results.
 
#82 ·
Thank you so much Randy for this thread and the distribution of your knowledge. Have you or anyone else out there employed a chain gang close to the line of a training set up for young pups (ten weeks and older) to get the young dogs used to watching marks and knowing that all of the marks they see aren't for them?
 
#83 ·
The correction I use is what they've been trained on prior...Collar Condition sit nick...heel nick...here nick..most of the corrections are done prior to getting to the line. Remember very little correction is needed because you can change the dogs mind, the dog doesn't want to get corrected again but if you correct them and it's still not the reaction you wanted wait them out.
Example:True Story...Candidate was a Running With The Devil male 3 yrs of age, I corrected on a heel because the dog was forging, reaction on his part was 75% effort on coming back to me.(collar by my knee is my standard) I watched his eyes and I saw him glance over quickly to probably see if I was coming with him or exactly why I wasn't by HIS SIDE. From his reaction I knew that he knew he was wrong and he was digging in his heels and he wasn't coming back to me.
WHAT TO DO NEXT IS VITAL TO SUCCESS: DON'T MOVE AN INCH.. I waited for him to come back by my side about 10 minutes, I grabbed my phone and text clients about next days training, about todays training, text my mom said HI, and the whole time what I was doing was waiting for the dog to change his mental state of mind. I said the command once with a correction,heel nick...FINALLY (between texts) I saw his eyes looking up towards me and he finally laid his ears back little by little and he decided to come back to my knee, prior to that he didn't care but I waited him out with no physical contact except 1 tap on the collar. What happens next is the neat part, does the dog forge again?? you bet..do I stop and wait you bet, how long did it take until the dog came back by my side the 2nd time?? About 5 seconds because he knew I wasn't giving in.. I WIN!!! Are they all that mentally tough? Course Not but that's what he needed done. This is why most pros don't take on dogs like this because of time,but it works.
 
#86 ·
..FINALLY (between texts) I saw his eyes looking up towards me and he finally laid his ears back little by little and he decided to come back to my knee, prior to that he didn't care but I waited him out with no physical contact except 1 tap on the collar. What happens next is the neat part, does the dog forge again?? you bet..do I stop and wait you bet, how long did it take until the dog came back by my side the 2nd time?? About 5 seconds because he knew I wasn't giving in.. I WIN!!! Are they all that mentally tough? Course Not but that's what he needed done. This is why most pros don't take on dogs like this because of time,but it works.

If only more parents understood and acted on this concept. Mean what you say and enforce it. If its not worth the effort to enforce, don't say it to begin with. With dogs or children, sounds simple, but it's not so easy to remember to uniformly enforce a standard. It's definitely the right thing to do, but follow through is another thing. If you don't believe your dog needs standards, just watch a 3 year old child manipulating his parents in a store, listen to the number of times a parent will repeat the same command with no attention from the child, listen to every escalating threat be ignored while the bad behavior continues. Thanks Randy! I'm committed to uphold the standards but I know I'm not consistent enough....yet...

Pam
 
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