British Labs / No Force????

[yellow machine]

I really hope this is not a continuing thread for weeks on end. Save your typing for something else.PLEASE

[Swampbilly]

Yawning widely and waiting for another protracted flogging of a dead horse. How many pages this time?

Evan

LoL!^^^
Think I'll never understand why there's always an affiliation of dawgs trained Pos. Re- with our British friends across the pond.
Just know I'm not the only American, (and Americans before me, and Americans before them), that's never completely forced a dog to do anything.
That said-

Know that after having trained my first Collar dog several years ago there's no going back...

Lots of Ways to Train a Dog

[Bill Billups]

British training and no force training are not the same thing. In Britain aversives are used in training,just not collars or FF.

[WRL]

Force fetching is just a tool.

Yes, American labs are bred to deliver the hand. ANY Lab, is bred to deliver to hand. Some are better at it then others but with reinforcement and working with on it its easy peasy.

I think people get confused about the REASON for force fetching.

Force fetching is the tool that is used to change retrieving from the dog's game to OUR game. It changes the dynamics of the "retrieve". It makes it a command vs "asking".

To me, its the single most important tool in training. When I am out hunting, I don't want the dog to have a CHOICE to refuse. Get the bird, go when I tell you and go where I tell you.

Upon the process of force fetch, its extended to teach and reinforce "non-natural" hunting tasks (ie handling).

People get "sold" on the whole "non-force" program because it SOUNDS kindler and gentler. Its easier to "stomach" for most average trainers until....until....well until the "non-force fetched" dog quits. If it quits, you have NO TOOLS in place to compel it to do what you want it to do (retrieve).

Also, please keep in mind, that the British do not hunt like we do. They do not sit in marshes and decoy ducks. They do not sit in pit blinds and call for geese.

If I was going to go 4x4ing I would get a truck, I would NOT buy a mini cooper.

WRL

[Lonnie Spann]

I noticed a handler issue also. The British trainers have such bad teeth the dogs are having a hard time understanding them.

That right there is FUNNY!!!

The most interesting post in the entire thread.

Lonster

[Steve Shaver]

I think most dont understand force training and it is mainly because of the word force. Just because the word force is used doesnt mean the dog is being forced to do something it doesnt want to. It is simply a method of training.

[leemac]

Has anyone out there seen a dog that would consistently handle a poison bird in a hunting situation that was trained without being force fetched, or without force to get the dog pasted the poison bird and on the the cripple that would be lost if it was not retrieved first?

British or American or Chinese is of no consequence.

[achiro]

British labs are born completly trained, I thought everyone knew that.

[Swampbilly]

Has anyone out there seen a dog that would consistently handle a poison bird in a hunting situation that was trained without being force fetched, or without force to get the dog pasted the poison bird and on the the cripple that would be lost if it was not retrieved first?

British or American or Chinese is of no consequence.

Know what you're saying, (I think). And very much agree.

Do have to answer yes to your question however...my own dog...however, it didn't come easy.
And if you had the same set up in a HT, on land my dog back then would have handled well, but more than likely I'd have left the Test losing an entry fee.

[fishduck]

I have witnessed very nice British dogs. No arguments here that they can and will perform the task.

My point is more on the no force required. All Labs need training to be usefull hunting companions. I have never met a person who trained with a current modern e collar program that returned to their old program.