British Labs / No Force????

[kennel maiden]

Has anyone out there seen a dog that would consistently handle a poison bird in a hunting situation that was trained without being force fetched, or without force to get the dog pasted the poison bird and on the the cripple that would be lost if it was not retrieved first?

British or American or Chinese is of no consequence.

Yup. I'm British, with 'British' labs, in Brit-land!!! Plenty of us competing at the very highest levels over here, who do not use any type of 'force' programme, and manage to be 'quite successful' .

I've been off the board for a while, doing rather than typing, but am happy to answer any questions if it is helpful on the different methods we use. We still 'correct' dogs if they go wrong, vocally or by putting them back on the spot, but we don't go through any of the FF programmes, heeling sticks, tables/benches etc, etc.... I think our 'programme' is a lot less structured than yours, more organic if you like, but somehow we muddle along in our own 'brit-fashion' and get a half-decent end result...

[RetrieverNation]

Do these no force british labs hunt woodcock? Not too many dogs will pick them up without forcing. Would be interesting experiment to see if a woodcock would be delivered to hand.

I liked all the british labs I have met.

Not sure why force is getting a bad wrap. Maybe too much ignorance and misinformation is playing on peoples emotions, especially from influences outside of retriever training. Or maybe some just get sick of the negative stereotype and the defense of the most popular methods. Heck, I even get sick of my neighbors overly concerned questions about my dogs staying outside in dog runs during the day. "OOOHHH Those Poor Dogs, Dont They Get Cold?" LOL

[rbr]

Like politics, the perpetuation of myths becomes an important marketing tool.

Bert

[Gun_Dog2002]

British labs make great pets, companion dogs, floor cleaners, cab labs, etc. I've only seen a couple I'd ever want to hunt with...just my preference in dogs...

/Paul

[hotel4dogs]

I'm really new to this, but I don't recall seeing the British Labs in Brit-land doing some of the water work that we do here? Or am I wrong?

[BonMallari]

my brother Clint went to medical school in England, and on the rare times that he had to himself he spent the time watching British field trials and retriever training methods...you are comparing apples to oranges...just like the United States and Great Britain are two nations separated by a common language

[Evan]

British labs are born completly trained, I thought everyone knew that.

Now THAT is funny right there!!

Evan

[Paul "Happy" Gilmore]

Oh oh another deviation from the norm. "HAPPY" will not like this.

Obviously you haven't read Jennifer's thread on positive training.

[rmilner]

In British Field Trials the dogs are required to retrieve whatever is shot. That will typically include pheasants, ducks, woodcock, partridge, snipe, grouse, rabbits, hares, the occasional pigeon.


Additionally
The dog is required to retrieve the particular bird indicated by the judge. That will nearly always be the crippled bird first, and it does not matter whether the dog saw it or not. The dog on the way to the cripple fall area often flushes fresh birds. If he chases them he is out. When he get to the area of the fall and takes up the trail of the cripple he must follow it and ignore freshly flushed birds. Frequently the trail on a strong runner will take the dog out of sight and into heavy cover for long time periods (see link at bottom for photos of typical cover). If he fails to find and fetch that cripple, he is out. Then another dog is tried on the same bird.
Additionally the dog will be required to sit quietly through a pheasant drive where dozens of pheasants are shot as great numbers are driven over pre-stationed guns. The drive might continue for 20 minutes and several hundred birds be driven over with 40 or 50 shot. After the drive the dogs must continue to sit and honor the other working dogs until their turn comes. See photo on link below. It shows 5 dogs on line for a drive. Two of them are with one handler. This was taken at the IGL Retriever Championship in 1987 at Sandringham.
Here is a longer look at British Field Trials: http://www.duckhillkennels.com/dogs/

On Training:
British retriever trainers and training culture is far more gentle than the American model. There are some hard trainers in the UK, but they are few in number. Much of the training is based on compulsion, but the application is much softer.

Positive training is a different model in which nearly no compulsion is used.
Here is a synopsis of Positive training for retriever gundogs: http://www.duckhillkennels.com/dogs/positivegundogs.php

[Chris Videtto]

I think Eug posted this video a while back.....pretty interesting, nothing to do with force, American vs British just a very cool video with some excellent dog work!



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mBBiL3ixsFY