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British Labs / No Force????

96K views 332 replies 84 participants last post by  Aussie 
#1 ·
Below is an article I found in Gun Dog magazine. I would like everyones thoughts on British Labs and British training methods that apparently "do not use force"?

Gun Dog Article:

There’s a new movement making British Style Field Trials popular again, along with the British strain of Labrador retriever. These Labs are largely born with the behavior of delivering retrieved objects to hand, making it unnecessary to force-fetch them. They are also bred to be calm companions as well as peak performers in the field, according to Robert Milner, who breeds British Labs at Duckhill Kennel. And from what I saw of his 5-week-old puppies to 5-year-old adults, it’s absolutely true.

The big attraction to these trials and British training methods, for me, was the lack of force training. No force to pile, force to water, force anything. For dogs bred to be highly trainable and good at hunting, like my golden, this philosophy says it’s not necessary to use force. It’s very believable after watching several British-trained dogs complete 175-yard blind retrieves through walls of 5-foot tall brush and woods, guided by whistle and hand signals, then stand at heel, steady as a rock, while they watch another dog work.
 
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#64 ·
A number between none and one. The one - "the" water retrieve - is a requirement at the IGL championships, the UK national held last month.

Weekend trials generally devoid of water work - sort of like (sorry, Eug) Aston Villa's goal differential this season...

From the KC "J" regs
10. Water Retrieves
a. In Open and All Aged Stakes, the water retrieve is a blind retrieve from across water. If a dog returns by land, it should not be penalised for this unless it wastes time thereby.
MG
 
#51 ·
The way I look at it is, if you want to train your dog with a collar then go for it , If you want to train your dog without a collar then go for it. Just train your dog because an untrained dog ain't much count for hunting in my opinion ;)
 
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#55 ·
Paul...it's very unfortunate that you'll never get to hunt with my two girls, I'm sure it would be an experience you would talk about even on your death bed. My take is, "Life is too short to hunt with an ugly dog"....both of my girls were force fetch trained at about 9 months old, and there were hours and days of force to the pile and it paid off... they are more that floor cleaners, lab cabs, pets, they climb in the bed with me every night...and they are gorgous...just real gorgous....
 
#57 ·
I recently had the chance to hunt with a Brithish trained lab. The dog was trained at one of the top Kennels in the US that specialize in this type dog and system. All I can say is that I love the good ole USA training and breeding methods. When I am looking for a puppy and see "British or English" I keep looking.
 
#65 · (Edited)
does anyone know what kind of water retrieves you would see at a British field trial?
As crackerd posted, very few. Even on ordinary shoot days there won't be many; just in the way that a lot of US sportsmen have developed their interest in duck hunting over decoys, so in UK the driven scene looms large. So the specialist retrievers in the US work in a lot of water, but in UK we have a heavy exposure to heavy numbers on land, and of course you can expect ground game. What you term upland and we call "rough shooting" are pretty much the same.

Two Fridays back I actually had six water retrieves on the bounce; all pheasants that had landed in a lake. By your standards they were pretty simple, nothing over 50 yards and only one blind. The following Wednesday I had to have the dog in question put down which was a real punch in the face. But still, as a Villa supporter you get used to disappointment.:(

MG ....it was "Eddie"one of the pair I had from Jeff, I've told him about it. As you know he had a really cruel trot with his dogs a couple of years back, but he's doing well with them now. Given up Trialling, and judging too, and seemingly happier for it.

Eug
 
#67 ·
km, ta for clarifying - my J regs may be outdated (couple years old). But "making the" or "making their" water retrieve (singular) has been a staple of all the IGL champs I've been attuned to, at least the last decade or so.

Eug, sorry to hear about Eddie - you did a'right by them two, bless you for it. Hope the squire of Chatston Gundogs resurfaces in the FT game with his sangfroid still "Always Look(ing) on the Bright Side of Life" - a gem, he is.

MG
 
#68 ·
I think the water retrieve at the IGL sometimes is more a 'crowd pleaser' than anything else, if it happens!! Certainly didn't happen at Blankney 2009 and Nevill Holt 2011 among the recent ones. Let's face it, all our dogs can swim, so that is not really what we are 'testing'. There is more focus on game finding ability, marking, scenting, style and then working in-tune with the handler to seemingly pick the birds with ease...
 
#69 ·
When I think of British Labs only one comes to mind for me. HRCH Ellie MH owned by Gulfcoast. A very nice a dog indeed regardless of her breeding. :):)
 
#76 ·
Thanks for the compliments. That made my day!

Will say however, that I wrote that a year ago, though it wasn't published til much later. Since then I've purchase and raised an American bred field dog who has proven to be born with the same traits I spoke of in the article. Natural delivery to hand at 7 weeks (even pigeons) and extremely trainable.

Also have learned a lot about force training in the last year and know that it is not what I first thought it to be when I wrote that article.

This thread has been a neat discussion. So glad to see the openness and civil back and forth!

Jen
 
#90 · (Edited)
If you've been around long enough, you will have seen countless individuals (newbs) come onto these forums and proclaim they're going to do it "their way" inspite of advice from the old-timers who have already been there / done that.

If someone wants to beat their head against the wall while telling the old-timers they're going to build a better moustrap, it makes no difference to me.

Make no mistake, I applaud the effort...but lots of us have tried that already and watched a hundred others try, so hopefully the skepticism can be understood.
 
#102 · (Edited)
There is also a huge difference between an amateur with one (or two or three) dogs, and a pro who must produce certain results within a certain time frame or risk losing his reputation and means of making a living.
While I don't dispute that dogs can be trained by various means, sometimes for people who make a living training dogs they are under tremendous pressure to get the dog ready for (fill in the blank....hunting pheasants by the time he's 12 months old, hunt tests at 1 year old, field trials while he's young enough for derby, whatever) and some means are just faster than others are. An amateur has the luxury of taking all the time they need to accomplish their goals, with just one or two dogs typically.
 
#103 ·
Yes yes yes

there is also a huge difference between an amateur with one (or two or three) dogs, and a pro who must produce certain results within a certain time frame or risk losing his reputation and means of making a living.
While i don't dispute that dogs can be trained by various means, sometimes for people who make a living training dogs they are under tremendous pressure to get the dog ready for (fill in the blank....hunting pheasants by the time he's 12 months old, hunt tests at 1 year old, field trials while he's young enough for derby, whatever) and some means are just faster than others are. An amateur has the luxury of taking all the time they need to accomplish their goals, with just one or two dogs typically.
 
#104 ·
I think that many trainers are guilty of being underinformed. People criticize the ecollar without knowing anything about it. Others criticize marker training without knowing anything about it. And others criticize Amish style training without even knowing many of the techniques that have vanished from the scene.

Examples of the above:

1) No, I don't follow a system, I just kind of use my own system of using the ecollar.
2) I just say yes. The dog knows what it means, no need to condition it.
3) That dog did ............... (fill in the blank). When he gets back to you, pick him up off all fours and shake him up. Teach that SOB a lesson.
4) Well the dog did it right yesterday when I taught him. I'm sure he knows how to do it right.
 
#110 · (Edited)
Renee

I would also use the word "good" and "yes" with the clicker because the clicker is not heard that far out when you start to work in the field with the dog. And food may detract the dog from his up close teaching and work. Good while he is a pup but you don't want him dropping the bird for food. IMHO
I do target teach on my dogs as pups because in agility there are contact points the dog must touch (seesaw, walkit and A frame).

I am just not sure clicker's value for long blinds etc in Ft unless you do mega association work up close work with the clicker and the pager on your collar then???Just thinking out loud! Maybe I shouldn't!!!! Any body else have ideas how that would work.
 
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