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Thread: British Labs / No Force????

  1. #101
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer Henion View Post
    It's a little bit more than baby puppy stuff and parlor tricks. Petsmart clicker training 10 years ago is not something to base an opinion on about current clicker training methods for retriever training. That would be like me basing my opinion on current ladies fashions on Kmart's latest offerings.

    It's the same with ecollar training. You can buy one at Bass Pro Shop and read the brochure that comes with it and strap it on a dog and start training - that's not going to amount to much, either. That's not ecollar training ala Lardy or Dennis.

    If you want to have a good discussion about clicker training or ecollar training, come to the table with a little more than parlor tricks and Petsmart, or Bass Pro and burn.

    One reason I posted the thread on Lindsay getting 5 Qual Jams in one year is that it helps show that clicker training and R+ can achieve more than baby puppy training and parlor tricks. Not sure if you've competed at a Qualifying stake - I haven't - but I have an understanding of how challenging they are for any first time Am trainer of any training method. By the way, Lindsay wrote and said his dog Laddie got his first Qual Jam at age 3. Lindsay's life is not all about Field Trials, so it took until this year to get the other competitions under his belt.

    I'm not trying to convince all newbies of anything as you intimated earlier. The tried and true methods are great! That's why I'm a giant fan of the Lardy DVDs and articles and am following them - with my own clicker and R+ twists and minus the compulsion force to pile stuff. It just is what is right for my hobby and my dog.

    The cool thing is if I can come on RTF when things get complicated and say "how are you guys doing this and can you help me problem solve". I don't think we all need to be doing the exact same things the exact same way to do that - or to learn from each other.

    Your posts seem to indicate that all of the knowledge about Retriever training is already known and tried and nothing new or different can possibly pan out, cause it hasn't been proved yet. I don't think that's true about any field. If innovation stops happening in anything worthwhile, we're in trouble.
    We corresponded about this dog a while back.........don't you remember ?

    BTW Did it ever occur to you that the dog may have gotten the JAMs in spite of this type of training and not because of it ?

    john
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  2. #102
    Senior Member hotel4dogs's Avatar
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    There is also a huge difference between an amateur with one (or two or three) dogs, and a pro who must produce certain results within a certain time frame or risk losing his reputation and means of making a living.
    While I don't dispute that dogs can be trained by various means, sometimes for people who make a living training dogs they are under tremendous pressure to get the dog ready for (fill in the blank....hunting pheasants by the time he's 12 months old, hunt tests at 1 year old, field trials while he's young enough for derby, whatever) and some means are just faster than others are. An amateur has the luxury of taking all the time they need to accomplish their goals, with just one or two dogs typically.
    Last edited by hotel4dogs; 12-07-2012 at 07:13 AM.

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  3. #103
    Senior Member yellow machine's Avatar
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    Yes yes yes

    Quote Originally Posted by hotel4dogs View Post
    there is also a huge difference between an amateur with one (or two or three) dogs, and a pro who must produce certain results within a certain time frame or risk losing his reputation and means of making a living.
    While i don't dispute that dogs can be trained by various means, sometimes for people who make a living training dogs they are under tremendous pressure to get the dog ready for (fill in the blank....hunting pheasants by the time he's 12 months old, hunt tests at 1 year old, field trials while he's young enough for derby, whatever) and some means are just faster than others are. An amateur has the luxury of taking all the time they need to accomplish their goals, with just one or two dogs typically.
    A cold nose feels good on a hot day.....
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  4. #104
    Senior Member gdgnyc's Avatar
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    I think that many trainers are guilty of being underinformed. People criticize the ecollar without knowing anything about it. Others criticize marker training without knowing anything about it. And others criticize Amish style training without even knowing many of the techniques that have vanished from the scene.

    Examples of the above:

    1) No, I don't follow a system, I just kind of use my own system of using the ecollar.
    2) I just say yes. The dog knows what it means, no need to condition it.
    3) That dog did ............... (fill in the blank). When he gets back to you, pick him up off all fours and shake him up. Teach that SOB a lesson.
    4) Well the dog did it right yesterday when I taught him. I'm sure he knows how to do it right.
    "I love the rod and gun and where they take me."

  5. #105
    Senior Member mitty's Avatar
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    Ok here's a video of a guy teaching a baby puppy using a clicker. It was uploaded 3 years ago. With all the advances in clicker training, how should we be doing it differently? Better yet, show us:

    Renee P

  6. #106
    Senior Member DarrinGreene's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rmilner View Post


    Much of the (British) training is based on compulsion, but the application is much softer.

    I hate pulling out only one line of a post but this is VERY relevant to any real discussion of the topic.
    Darrin Greene

  7. #107
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer Henion View Post
    It's a little bit more than baby puppy stuff and parlor tricks. Petsmart clicker training 10 years ago is not something to base an opinion on about current clicker training methods for retriever training. That would be like me basing my opinion on current ladies fashions on Kmart's latest offerings.

    It's the same with ecollar training. You can buy one at Bass Pro Shop and read the brochure that comes with it and strap it on a dog and start training - that's not going to amount to much, either. That's not ecollar training ala Lardy or Dennis.

    If you want to have a good discussion about clicker training or ecollar training, come to the table with a little more than parlor tricks and Petsmart, or Bass Pro and burn.

    One reason I posted the thread on Lindsay getting 5 Qual Jams in one year is that it helps show that clicker training and R+ can achieve more than baby puppy training and parlor tricks. Not sure if you've competed at a Qualifying stake - I haven't - but I have an understanding of how challenging they are for any first time Am trainer of any training method. By the way, Lindsay wrote and said his dog Laddie got his first Qual Jam at age 3. Lindsay's life is not all about Field Trials, so it took until this year to get the other competitions under his belt.

    I'm not trying to convince all newbies of anything as you intimated earlier. The tried and true methods are great! That's why I'm a giant fan of the Lardy DVDs and articles and am following them - with my own clicker and R+ twists and minus the compulsion force to pile stuff. It just is what is right for my hobby and my dog.

    The cool thing is if I can come on RTF when things get complicated and say "how are you guys doing this and can you help me problem solve". I don't think we all need to be doing the exact same things the exact same way to do that - or to learn from each other.

    Your posts seem to indicate that all of the knowledge about Retriever training is already known and tried and nothing new or different can possibly pan out, cause it hasn't been proved yet. I don't think that's true about any field. If innovation stops happening in anything worthwhile, we're in trouble.
    And the Amish still get to the grocery store in the horse and buggy......while I choose to drive my truck.

    Do you want to drive cross country to the east coast with me in my truck or with the Amish guy in his horse and buggy?

    Because the Amish guy wants to use his horse and buggy should he get "extra" points? Or is that his choice and should he be compared to anyone who chooses to drive their truck because that is their choice?

    While I applaud anyone with their first dog getting the guts to run FTs and to finish is great in any stake....truly an accomplishment. But their methods and their goals are not the methods and goals of others.

    Nobody with a truck is going to willing go back to the horse and buggy.

    WRL

  8. #108
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    Saw an ad for a new tv program. Amish Mafia. Made me think of the the chocolate dog guys without e-collars.

  9. #109
    Senior Member mitty's Avatar
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    Here's another video that has a lot of footage of teaching retrieve/hold/fetch etc. Kinda cool but 3 years old. How would you do teach this differently with the newer methods?

    Renee P

  10. #110
    Senior Member Mary Lynn Metras's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mitty View Post
    Ok here's a video of a guy teaching a baby puppy using a clicker. It was uploaded 3 years ago. With all the advances in clicker training, how should we be doing it differently? Better yet, show us:

    Renee

    I would also use the word "good" and "yes" with the clicker because the clicker is not heard that far out when you start to work in the field with the dog. And food may detract the dog from his up close teaching and work. Good while he is a pup but you don't want him dropping the bird for food. IMHO
    I do target teach on my dogs as pups because in agility there are contact points the dog must touch (seesaw, walkit and A frame).

    I am just not sure clicker's value for long blinds etc in Ft unless you do mega association work up close work with the clicker and the pager on your collar then???Just thinking out loud! Maybe I shouldn't!!!! Any body else have ideas how that would work.
    Last edited by Mary Lynn Metras; 12-07-2012 at 09:47 AM.
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