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Thread: British Labs / No Force????

  1. #181
    Senior Member Dave Flint's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AmiableLabs View Post
    To say a dog is incapable of disobeying is to advocate they possess no will of their own;

    To say a dog is capable of disobeying but will always choose not to, is naive to the point of absurdity.
    I agree w/ AmiableLabs here.

    I must say that this thread has take a very interesting turn for the better with some deeply insightful thoughts.

    I always follow posts by both Eug & Colonel Milner as I find them to be very well thought out & interesting. I also happen to appreciate the traits the British gun dogs are evaluated for and wish that our Hunt Test programs reflected some of them more. Since I agree w/ them on so many issues, I'm intrigued by their statements on this one.

    If the dog does not have the capability to disobey a known command, doesn’t he also lack the ability to obey one? Do you ascribe to the theory that all organisms (us included) are merely responding to a stimulus and therefore aren't responsible for our actions?

    I’ve considered B.F. Skinner’s Radical Behaviorism theory but it simply does not match up with my own experiences with dogs (or humans). I know that I see dogs make decisions very often in training. Of course, training sessions should be designed to utilize the tools of Operant Conditioning to thoroughly teach a concept before you can hold them accountable, but I just don’t believe it’s all there is to it. I think the conditioned response to a "whistle sit" for example accounts for a large percentage of the reason the dog's butt moves toward the ground, but it is clear to me that there is often a "decision process" going on that keeps him there. (or not)


    If I believed my dogs were merely predictable responders to stimuli, and all I need to do is build a big enough “Skinner box” to train in, I wouldn’t have pissed away all the time & money I have over the last 30+ years being fascinated by them.
    "The bird hunter watches only the dog, and always knows where the dog is, whether or not visible at the moment. The dog’ nose is the bird hunters eye. Many hunters who carry a shotgun in season have never learned to watch the dog, or interpret his reaction to scent."
    Aldo Leopold, Round River

  2. #182
    Senior Member hotel4dogs's Avatar
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    I have very little experience, but I feel that I see the same thing. For example, a cast away from something very attractive. He will pause very slightly, maybe even flinch in the direction that HE wants to head in, pause slightly again, and then head in the direction I cast him in. I am certain he made a decision to do what he was told to do....(or not! )

    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Flint View Post
    .... I know that I see dogs make decisions very often in training.... but it is clear to me that there is often a "decision process" going on...


    If I believed my dogs were merely predictable responders to stimuli, and all I need to do is build a big enough “Skinner box” to train in, I wouldn’t have pissed away all the time & money I have over the last 30+ years being fascinated by them.

    Barb Gibson
    with
    CH Rosewood Little Giant UDX VER RA SH MXP MJP OFP VCX WCX CCA CGC FFX-OG
    also UCH HR UUD UJJ URO1 UHIT
    (golden retriever) born 3-10-07
    a.k.a. "Tito", "The Tito Monster"
    www.GoTeamTito.com

  3. #183
    Senior Member Bartona500's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DarrinGreene View Post
    terrible pet peeve of mine Bart, using those terms incorrectly. I think I just get confused too easily LoL
    my bad! Really though, it would be interesting to have someone who is really quick at recognize which of the four you are using (+r -r +p -p) watch a few training sessions and do a data chart on which ones were used how often in a full training session.
    -Barton Ramsey

  4. #184
    Senior Member Bartona500's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kennel maiden View Post
    I've also stayed away from this, as there didn't seem much point, when many on here don't want to look at how so-called 'British' training methods may actually work or have some value vs e-collar/ff/ear pinch etc. I don't know why people post things like "I wish this thread would go away"? Why don't they just not look at it, if they are not interested? Weird.

    Anyway, to answer the question about aversives, for those that are interested, as Eug says, yes British trainers use aversives, some more so than others. And these come in the form of vocally correcting the dog "no!" or "oy!" (some times followed by the odd expletive!), and also by taking the dog back out to the spot of infringement and restarting or giving it a bit of a shake.

    But as Eugene has said, there does seem to be much more of a move by some of the newer/more modern trainers (in line with other canine disciplines) to use positive methods of reinforcement (such as using a clicker in early stages of obedience training, and markers for good work). I would count myself in this group of kinder/modern/positive trainers...

    I guess we teach positively, and then if something does go wrong we either 'correct' or use attrition or back track and try and get it engrained again.

    So, at this point I would comment on the video posted by Barton (hope he doesn't mind). In that exercise, which to us is a straight forward blind retrieve with a marked distraction at an angle. I would line the dog for the blind and send it on that line with my cue word for a blind, rather than a mark, giving the dog a clue it is going for a blind rather than the mark it has just seen. I expect the dog to take my line that I am giving it. Other trainers here would indicate the 'poison bird' and command 'leave that' and then turn the dog onto the blind. I don't like doing this as I just simply want the dog to go where I am sending it - horses for courses. If the dog takes, and holds, my line it is going to fall over the bird on the stubble. And, to me, this excercise is about taking and holding a line (not whether a dog will handle/re-cast - I would practise that separately). So, in Barton's case the dog went only so far, and then was off line and required not one but 2-3 stops and re-casts.... To me, that wouldn't be acceptable (but to many handlers over here it is, if they are just picking up with their dogs, or doing the odd test). As, I say, I want the dog to take the line and hold that line until told otherwise (fairly simple on a flat field, but later will have to do this over fences, through cover, across ditches etc). So, I send the dog off and if it doesn't hold the line I will either (depending on the sensitivity of the dog) give it a vocal correction 'ah ah' once it has come way off line, recall and start again, or simply recall it and start again without a correction.

    With a young dog, if it didn't manage this within a couple of go's I would then either simplify (walk out and show it the dummy and walk back) or walk further forwards to the dummy, shortening the distance of outrun (but keeping the exercise the same 'take my line and hold my line and you will find a dummy').

    Until I had got this concept of blinds with distraction totally right, with the dog not sucking towards the 'poison bird', or as we would say 'challenging my line' then I certainly would not be setting the same exercise up on water!!! From the clip you see the dog challenged 3 times on land, and then on water this was a whole lot worse, around 8-9 commands to get the dummy. So, I would get rock solid on land, before going onto water.

    Also, I would not always send for the 'poison bird' but sometimes go and hand pick it.

    Not saying any of this is right or wrong. More than one way to skin a cat... but just giving an example on how I would train for something like this, here, with 'Brit methods'. For those that are interested. And for those that aren't, I can't believe they are still dipping into this thread?!!!....
    I appreciate your comments on the video! I will say, her/my job on water was the worst we have done in a while. We having worked on poison birds in several weeks, and obviously she was struggling with me pushing her back toward the bank.

    As for your method of working this out on land, I did give her the cue for a blind retrieve rather than a mark. I'm not very sure you can hear it in the video, but I said "heel... dead bird... back" on the blind and then "heel... where's your mark.... good.... maggie" on the mark. These are the cue words we use to distinguish the two.

    I ran the same land test after we did the water test, and I have uploaded it as well. Since we jumped straight off the trailer to do these drills, we didn't have any time for warming up, airing, etc. I didn't post this one yesterday because she decided to relieve herself on the way back. Normally this would be the most unacceptable part of the whole ordeal, but it was my fault for not airing her after work. As you can see, she runs the line much better this time. The bumper was placed about 10 yards to the left on the previous bumper, and a short bit closer. She nearly over runs the blind, so I stopped her to put her on it. It was muggy and wet, and scenting appeared to be terrible. That being said, I ran poison birds the next two days, including today, and she had zero issues with suction toward the mark. I think it just takes a reminder or two on drills such as these.

    http://youtu.be/5D8lvcjB-P4

    *** I was tempted to post this one the first time and just remove the part where she takes a dump 10 feet from me.... but I thought that giving and honest showing of her first run would be the right thing to do
    -Barton Ramsey

  5. #185
    Senior Member Howard N's Avatar
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    On a second note, the water portion of that video, if the handler were to use NO VERBAL BACKS, just silent angle backs, do you all think he would get better direction change and possibly do that blind with half the whistles? Or not?
    I thought so. Often vocals will tend to send the dog where it wanted to go.
    Howard Niemi

    You really gotta be careful about how high a pedestal you put your method, your accomplishments, your dog on. There's usually someone who's done more, somewhere. And they may have used a different method than you did! Chris Atkinson 2013

    get your dog out and TRAIN! caryalsobrook 2013

  6. #186
    Senior Member gdgnyc's Avatar
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    Barton, thanks for the video.
    "I love the rod and gun and where they take me."

    "Do not judge a man until you have walked two moons in his moccasins."

  7. #187
    Senior Member gdgnyc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Howard N View Post
    I thought so. Often vocals will tend to send the dog where it wanted to go.

    I'm curious, do you use vocals?
    "I love the rod and gun and where they take me."

    "Do not judge a man until you have walked two moons in his moccasins."

  8. #188
    Senior Member Rnd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FinnLandR View Post
    I'd never heard this before. Can you (or someone else who understands this) explain. I'm interested....
    Well I don't know the difference between R+, R- or R2D2.

    But it would seem to me that those of us that use Carr based methods, "force"our dogs back.

    In doing so a Loud vocal "back" is used in conjunction with electrical stimulus.

    This is done over and over until the dog understands to go/dig back. Go back now and go hard.

    So when we give a cast (any cast )with a vocal it tends to "drive" the dog back. (we do not "force" the dogs on overs)



    So having said that it would only seem logical that a dog that was NOT "forced" on back would not be so inclined to dig back. (never conditioned to do so)

    The dog would be inclined to follow the body language of the handler without any overriding pressure to dig back.

    JMHO.

    May the force be with you regards. Artoo_negtc.jpg


    Randy
    May you pin all the marks and line the blinds!!

    Avatar courtesy of RTF"s TZAPPIA

  9. #189
    Senior Member MooseGooser's Avatar
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    I dont want to hyjack a very interesting thread... So,,,please dont respond to what I have to say..

    I am very confused.

    I didnt realise that there was this P+ P- R+R- stuff.
    It intrigued me.

    I took my Transmitter apart this morning to look to see what battery I had in mine... Its just +annd -

    I will keep reading and reserching to figger out where Ya get the Alph designated batteties,, R and P

    Very interesting thread.

    Gooser
    It is far easier to spit on the work of others than it is to produce something better yourself.
    Brynmoors Prairie Sage JH ​(Sage) Just a dang fool huntin Dawg
    HRCH Calypso Seven Bales High SH (Bailey)
    HR Calypso Zoomin Loosies Mad Hader (Maddi) We loved you baby. R.I.P.
    FlatLanders Broken Pistol Ricochet SH (Flinch)


    My Christian Name is Michael Baker..
    I have gone by "Gooser" since I was a "gossling"

  10. #190
    Senior Member Bartona500's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MooseGooser View Post
    I dont want to hyjack a very interesting thread... So,,,please dont respond to what I have to say..

    I am very confused.

    I didnt realise that there was this P+ P- R+R- stuff.
    It intrigued me.

    I took my Transmitter apart this morning to look to see what battery I had in mine... Its just +annd -

    I will keep reading and reserching to figger out where Ya get the Alph designated batteties,, R and P

    Very interesting thread.

    Gooser
    HAHA! That is hilarious.
    -Barton Ramsey

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