British Labs / No Force????

[Bartona500]

Barton, sorry, I just thought I may be straying from the very original post about FF? I was then specifically addressing the bit I had emboldened in your quote about a dog with both FTCH and CH in its pedigree....

Anyway, sorry you didn't think it helped or clarified.

Not a big deal, I was only proud we were finally back on topic! I know that, for the ones I've been involved with, getting a FTCh over here is far from inexpensive. It takes a lot of stud service fees to pay that off. However, there are some wealthy folks here willing to pay top $ for an authentic UK FTCh in the blind with them. Honestly, that part is pretty ridiculous... Because it takes quite a bit of work to get a FTCh ready for our type of waterfowl hunting.

[Gun_Dog2002]

I find the comments about dogs not being able to disobey interesting. My personal thought is it depends on how they are trained. In order for a disobedience to occur, one must understand both right and wrong, as well as understand the consequences for right and wrong. In a true all positive environment, wrong is not taught nor are they consequences for wrong. All focus is given to enhancing the desired traits. So I get that there is no "disobeying." However in a balanced training program it is possible for a dog to disobey as they are trained right and wrong and the consequences that go with them.

/Paul

[mlp]

I suspect that those that are sold as FTWs (having won a novice stake) are sold because they aren't going to go all the way here. Pure and simple. It is relatively easy, in experienced hands, to win a novice stake if the dog is generally good all round and polished, but going on to make it up to FT CH is a tad more difficult!!

The FT CHs that are sold are basically sold abroad for 'big bucks', pure and simple. Again, they may have deveoped eliminating faults with age, or the £££££s may just have been too tempting. If they were really great, they would be getting so much stud work here that selling wouldn't be an option (if it was a dog, not bitch). Or, they may have failed a DNA test (PRA or CNM) and therefore not likely to get much stud work....

Bottom line still is, that a GREAT FT CH is unlikely to be sold abroad, period.

A while ago, a lot of below-standard Scottish stock was sold to you guys (it's a deal easier to make up a FT CH in Scotland or Ireland) and probably gave some of our dogs a bad rap. I think this has been stamped on a bit now, and US folk are more wary/canny.

I agree, most of the dogs sold over here from the U.K. are below standard for U.K. trials. I have had the pleasure to see a couple FTCH's from over there that were what I call exceptional but as I was told they didn't come cheap.

[polmaise]

it's a deal easier to make up a FT CH in Scotland or Ireland) and probably gave some of our dogs a bad rap.

I think there is more than a few that would disagree with that?..
A FTCH, is a FTCH !! otherwise, that would make nonsense of the whole KC ethos and standing? regarding judging.
I will pass on your regards however,to some of those that have achieved such

[crackerd]

Ye olde rapscallion! Just riddle me this - is it true you gave the laird one of them calm and collected 'Merican Labs for his birthday?

MG

[polmaise]

Ye olde rapscallion! Just riddle me this - is it true you gave the laird one of them calm and collected 'Merican Labs for his birthday?

MG

Nah!! He couldn't handle one of them!...anyhow?...what do you get a Millionaire at the age of 80, who has everything!?
Easy! ....I got him 'Kippers'
http://www.thewhitbycatch.co.uk/cgi-...prod.cgi?id=68

[Jennifer Henion]

I find the comments about dogs not being able to disobey interesting. My personal thought is it depends on how they are trained. In order for a disobedience to occur, one must understand both right and wrong, as well as understand the consequences for right and wrong. In a true all positive environment, wrong is not taught nor are they consequences for wrong. All focus is given to enhancing the desired traits. So I get that there is no "disobeying." However in a balanced training program it is possible for a dog to disobey as they are trained right and wrong and the consequences that go with them.

/Paul

Nice post, /Paul. I would add that in a clicker training session, the dog does learn what "doesn't work" rather than what's "wrong". And as a consequence to do doing what "doesn't work" their treat or retrieve (reward) gets withheld. So if clicker training to heel: dog gets clicked and treated for walking at heel exactly correctly. If dog wanders ahead a bit, no click and no treat. Human stops to wait for right behavior, Dog learns and comes back to heel to get the human to click/treat.

Even though dog is not taught "Wrong = punishment" dog does learn "what doesn't work = no reward"

[duk4me]

Nah!! He couldn't handle one of them!...anyhow?...what do you get a Millionaire at the age of 80, who has everything!?
Easy! ....I got him 'Kippers'
http://www.thewhitbycatch.co.uk/cgi-...prod.cgi?id=68

Two things a pack of depends and some little blue pills we have over here.

[Scott Parker]

Nice post, /Paul. I would add that in a clicker training session, the dog does learn what "doesn't work" rather than what's "wrong". And as a consequence to do doing what "doesn't work" their treat or retrieve (reward) gets withheld. So if clicker training to heel: dog gets clicked and treated for walking at heel exactly correctly. If dog wanders ahead a bit, no click and no treat. Human stops to wait for right behavior, Dog learns and comes back to heel to get the human to click/treat.

Even though dog is not taught "Wrong = punishment" dog does learn "what doesn't work = no reward"

But is withholding a treat enough of an incentive to make some dogs do the right thing I know my dog would forgo a treat to go sniff and pee on a tree when being asked to heel. I think if you want reliable results from your dog they need to know the consequences for the wrong behavior or more sever then not getting a treat.

[crackerd]

Ye olde rapscallion! Just riddle me this - is it true you gave the laird one of them calm and collected 'Merican Labs for his birthday?

Nah!! He couldn't handle one of them!...anyhow?...what do you get a Millionaire at the age of 80, who has everything!?

Kept telling you, the laird would've loved having title to the first Scottish Boykin -



- as for force, fugeddaboutit - they're already a force of nature.

MG