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Thread: British Labs / No Force????

  1. #221
    Senior Member Bartona500's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kennel maiden View Post
    Barton, sorry, I just thought I may be straying from the very original post about FF? I was then specifically addressing the bit I had emboldened in your quote about a dog with both FTCH and CH in its pedigree....

    Anyway, sorry you didn't think it helped or clarified.
    Not a big deal, I was only proud we were finally back on topic! I know that, for the ones I've been involved with, getting a FTCh over here is far from inexpensive. It takes a lot of stud service fees to pay that off. However, there are some wealthy folks here willing to pay top $ for an authentic UK FTCh in the blind with them. Honestly, that part is pretty ridiculous... Because it takes quite a bit of work to get a FTCh ready for our type of waterfowl hunting.
    -Barton Ramsey

  2. #222
    Senior Member Gun_Dog2002's Avatar
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    I find the comments about dogs not being able to disobey interesting. My personal thought is it depends on how they are trained. In order for a disobedience to occur, one must understand both right and wrong, as well as understand the consequences for right and wrong. In a true all positive environment, wrong is not taught nor are they consequences for wrong. All focus is given to enhancing the desired traits. So I get that there is no "disobeying." However in a balanced training program it is possible for a dog to disobey as they are trained right and wrong and the consequences that go with them.

    /Paul
    Paul Cantrell
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  3. #223
    Senior Member mlp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kennel maiden View Post
    I suspect that those that are sold as FTWs (having won a novice stake) are sold because they aren't going to go all the way here. Pure and simple. It is relatively easy, in experienced hands, to win a novice stake if the dog is generally good all round and polished, but going on to make it up to FT CH is a tad more difficult!!

    The FT CHs that are sold are basically sold abroad for 'big bucks', pure and simple. Again, they may have deveoped eliminating faults with age, or the s may just have been too tempting. If they were really great, they would be getting so much stud work here that selling wouldn't be an option (if it was a dog, not bitch). Or, they may have failed a DNA test (PRA or CNM) and therefore not likely to get much stud work....

    Bottom line still is, that a GREAT FT CH is unlikely to be sold abroad, period.

    A while ago, a lot of below-standard Scottish stock was sold to you guys (it's a deal easier to make up a FT CH in Scotland or Ireland) and probably gave some of our dogs a bad rap. I think this has been stamped on a bit now, and US folk are more wary/canny.
    I agree, most of the dogs sold over here from the U.K. are below standard for U.K. trials. I have had the pleasure to see a couple FTCH's from over there that were what I call exceptional but as I was told they didn't come cheap.
    _____________________________________
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  4. #224
    Senior Member polmaise's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kennel maiden View Post
    it's a deal easier to make up a FT CH in Scotland or Ireland) and probably gave some of our dogs a bad rap.
    I think there is more than a few that would disagree with that?..
    A FTCH, is a FTCH !! otherwise, that would make nonsense of the whole KC ethos and standing? regarding judging.
    I will pass on your regards however,to some of those that have achieved such
    One Shooter One Spaniel One Retriever

  5. #225
    Senior Member crackerd's Avatar
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    Ye olde rapscallion! Just riddle me this - is it true you gave the laird one of them calm and collected 'Merican Labs for his birthday?

    MG

  6. #226
    Senior Member polmaise's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by crackerd View Post
    Ye olde rapscallion! Just riddle me this - is it true you gave the laird one of them calm and collected 'Merican Labs for his birthday?

    MG
    Nah!! He couldn't handle one of them!...anyhow?...what do you get a Millionaire at the age of 80, who has everything!?
    Easy! ....I got him 'Kippers'
    http://www.thewhitbycatch.co.uk/cgi-...prod.cgi?id=68
    One Shooter One Spaniel One Retriever

  7. #227
    Senior Member Jennifer Henion's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gun_Dog2002 View Post
    I find the comments about dogs not being able to disobey interesting. My personal thought is it depends on how they are trained. In order for a disobedience to occur, one must understand both right and wrong, as well as understand the consequences for right and wrong. In a true all positive environment, wrong is not taught nor are they consequences for wrong. All focus is given to enhancing the desired traits. So I get that there is no "disobeying." However in a balanced training program it is possible for a dog to disobey as they are trained right and wrong and the consequences that go with them.

    /Paul
    Nice post, /Paul. I would add that in a clicker training session, the dog does learn what "doesn't work" rather than what's "wrong". And as a consequence to do doing what "doesn't work" their treat or retrieve (reward) gets withheld. So if clicker training to heel: dog gets clicked and treated for walking at heel exactly correctly. If dog wanders ahead a bit, no click and no treat. Human stops to wait for right behavior, Dog learns and comes back to heel to get the human to click/treat.

    Even though dog is not taught "Wrong = punishment" dog does learn "what doesn't work = no reward"

  8. #228
    Senior Member duk4me's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by polmaise View Post
    Nah!! He couldn't handle one of them!...anyhow?...what do you get a Millionaire at the age of 80, who has everything!?
    Easy! ....I got him 'Kippers'
    http://www.thewhitbycatch.co.uk/cgi-...prod.cgi?id=68
    Two things a pack of depends and some little blue pills we have over here.
    I have learned I need these dogs much more than they need me. Tim Bockmon

  9. #229
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer Henion View Post
    Nice post, /Paul. I would add that in a clicker training session, the dog does learn what "doesn't work" rather than what's "wrong". And as a consequence to do doing what "doesn't work" their treat or retrieve (reward) gets withheld. So if clicker training to heel: dog gets clicked and treated for walking at heel exactly correctly. If dog wanders ahead a bit, no click and no treat. Human stops to wait for right behavior, Dog learns and comes back to heel to get the human to click/treat.

    Even though dog is not taught "Wrong = punishment" dog does learn "what doesn't work = no reward"
    But is withholding a treat enough of an incentive to make some dogs do the right thing I know my dog would forgo a treat to go sniff and pee on a tree when being asked to heel. I think if you want reliable results from your dog they need to know the consequences for the wrong behavior or more sever then not getting a treat.
    HRCH Dallys Wild Willow SH Born 11-06-97 Left Us 1-30-12 will always be in my thoughts RIP Willow

  10. #230
    Senior Member crackerd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by crackerd View Post
    Ye olde rapscallion! Just riddle me this - is it true you gave the laird one of them calm and collected 'Merican Labs for his birthday?
    Quote Originally Posted by polmaise View Post
    Nah!! He couldn't handle one of them!...anyhow?...what do you get a Millionaire at the age of 80, who has everything!?
    Kept telling you, the laird would've loved having title to the first Scottish Boykin -



    - as for force, fugeddaboutit - they're already a force of nature.

    MG

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