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Thread: British Labs / No Force????

  1. #241
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer Henion View Post
    And this is the crux of the force vs no force debate, isn't it. The answer it seems, is that it depends on the trainer's skill and the dog at hand. As well as the nature of the reward. Is it a tiny milk bone, or is it the promise of a duck to fetch?

    I use the treat/reward training to teach new skills and then reinforce that learned skill when tacking on a new skill.

    Like heeling to the line for a mark. I clicker/treat trained my pup to heel and it worked great. Then we tacked on the heel to the holding blind then holding blind to line, steadiness on line til sent for mark. Never seen a dog LOVE getting in the holding blind as much as this pup. She knows that each step in the chain is getting her closer to that ultimate reward of the mark/retrieve. If she fails to do a step, no retrieve. Boring. That's enough for her. BUT, we developed the right habits and expectations VERY EARLY ON.

    Clicker training is not just: grab any ole treat and go outside and see if the dog will do what you want, instead of what HE wants. It's a process and technique that has to be followed properly in order to get the right results - just like with ecollar training or any punishment based training. I promise that once a dog knows what the clicker means, and the trainer know what they are doing, the dog will very focused on trying to figure out what you're trying to train him.

    As for the debate on whether a dog will purposely disobey a known command, I think it's possible, but I think it's more about the choices presented to the dog and which choice is most rewarding. Is it 1.) humping the female in standing heat right next to him or 2.) Being told to stay at heel and get a click treat while a female in heat is standing next to him?

    I have stayed in several hotels with my 3 yr old golden and can easily heel him past the open breakfast area with waffle and bacon smell, children and people saying how cute he is. He was clicker trained to heel and finds it very rewarding to be with me in training mode.
    How has your young dog done in competition? The reason I ask, it that the level of excitement get raised considerably and the distraction level is raised exponentially.

    I know LOTS of dogs that are model citizens in the home, in the hotel or even in training but when the day for the event comes, they are jumping out of their skin.

    If your dog scoots on the line at an event (or any behavior that in training you would not reward), have you heeled them off the line and said "Thanks for your time judges I am not going to run my dog."

    How have you handled this situation where the dog has to contain ITSELF and not be restrained physically or verbally by you?

    WRL

  2. #242
    Senior Member Jennifer Henion's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WRL View Post
    How has your young dog done in competition? The reason I ask, it that the level of excitement get raised considerably and the distraction level is raised exponentially.

    I know LOTS of dogs that are model citizens in the home, in the hotel or even in training but when the day for the event comes, they are jumping out of their skin.

    If your dog scoots on the line at an event (or any behavior that in training you would not reward), have you heeled them off the line and said "Thanks for your time judges I am not going to run my dog."

    How have you handled this situation where the dog has to contain ITSELF and not be restrained physically or verbally by you?

    WRL
    I've made no secret of the fact that I've only achieved a JH title. And that was on the dog described as heeling in the hotel. He is now 3 and too slow and showy for field work. My new 10 month pup is a field bred dog and we'll see how things go in the Derby this spring.

    To /Paul: bacon treats aren't the reward used in the field. Birds and bumpers are the reward in the field.

    Jen

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    Senior Member gdgnyc's Avatar
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    I think that the retrieve is a very powerful tool in training a dog that loves to retrieve and fits in nicely with Jennifer's training philosophy. Retrieve for reward, removal for punishment.

    To the critics:
    How have you corrected your dog to steady it---heeling stick, collar correction, prevention of retrieve, something else? How have you gotten your dog steady to flush? I am all for using anything that works and I am open to trying new things and evaluating them.

    How many new techniques have you tried?

    For the record, I am not critical of anyone's training style. I personally don't like to be committed to one style, I like to have an open mind which I feel will help me grow as a trainer.

    To quote someone whom I respect: "Be married to your goal, not your style of training."
    "I love the rod and gun and where they take me."

    "Do not judge a man until you have walked two moons in his moccasins."

  4. #244
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer Henion View Post
    I've made no secret of the fact that I've only achieved a JH title. And that was on the dog described as heeling in the hotel. He is now 3 and too slow and showy for field work. My new 10 month pup is a field bred dog and we'll see how things go in the Derby this spring.

    To /Paul: bacon treats aren't the reward used in the field. Birds and bumpers are the reward in the field.

    Jen
    How do I use birds and bumpers to teach healing?

    /Paul
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  5. #245
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    Quote Originally Posted by gdgnyc View Post
    I think that the retrieve is a very powerful tool in training a dog that loves to retrieve and fits in nicely with Jennifer's training philosophy. Retrieve for reward, removal for punishment.

    To the critics:
    How have you corrected your dog to steady it---heeling stick, collar correction, prevention of retrieve, something else? How have you gotten your dog steady to flush? I am all for using anything that works and I am open to trying new things and evaluating them.

    How many new techniques have you tried?

    For the record, I am not critical of anyone's training style. I personally don't like to be committed to one style, I like to have an open mind which I feel will help me grow as a trainer.

    To quote someone whom I respect: "Be married to your goal, not your style of training."
    a rope and let the bird fly away. Have a clipped wing pigeon in your pocket. When dog is steady to flush, (bird MUST fly away, this is where homing pigeons are handy) you throw clipped wing pigeon and bang. If dog is not stead all it sees is the bird fly away. Do this a million times. There. I know a positive training method. But, someone will probably not call this positive I'm certain.
    Last edited by Paul "Happy" Gilmore; 12-11-2012 at 10:48 AM.

  6. #246
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    I am all for positive training in the obedience ring, the agility ring, around the house, etc. But dogs cannot hear a clicker at 450 yards. I have seen it happen before with obedience/positive trainers that think they can train for field trials in the same manner. At 450 yards, or when the mental pressure is on the dog, is when the wheels fall off. These dogs lives are too short to risk a talented dog in this manner IMHO. To have to go and try and retrain the dog at 3 or 4 years old, FF it, etc, is just unfair at that point in time. You loose a lot of competitive time. It's all a form of operant conditioning however. It's just a matter of a difference in the stimuli.

    So, I know for sure I won't be doing it. Just have seen too many good trainers have it blow up in their faces. But, if it works for you, I'll be one of the first to applaude your success.
    Susan

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  7. #247
    Senior Member Dave Flint's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gdgnyc View Post
    How have you gotten your dog steady to flush? I am all for using anything that works and I am open to trying new things and evaluating them.

    How many new techniques have you tried?

    It’s pretty easy to get a birdy dog to sit when he scents a bird using 2Q methods only, but as he get’s more experience at it, it will tend to slow his flush to the point (no pun intended) where he slows down on the way in rather than accelerating into the flush as is required in the Springer games that I play.

    If a bold flush isn’t important to you however, it’s probably the more reliable method to use.
    "The bird hunter watches only the dog, and always knows where the dog is, whether or not visible at the moment. The dog’ nose is the bird hunters eye. Many hunters who carry a shotgun in season have never learned to watch the dog, or interpret his reaction to scent."
    Aldo Leopold, Round River

  8. #248

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    Quote Originally Posted by WRL View Post
    How has your young dog done in competition? The reason I ask, it that the level of excitement get raised considerably and the distraction level is raised exponentially.

    I know LOTS of dogs that are model citizens in the home, in the hotel or even in training but when the day for the event comes, they are jumping out of their skin.

    If your dog scoots on the line at an event (or any behavior that in training you would not reward), have you heeled them off the line and said "Thanks for your time judges I am not going to run my dog."

    How have you handled this situation where the dog has to contain ITSELF and not be restrained physically or verbally by you?

    WRL
    You touch on something extremely important to training mainly with +R and -P that's ignored by many or glossed over, and that is the necessity of preventing--to the extent possible--your dog from being reinforced from behaviors you don't like or that don't meet criteria for the behavior you're training. You structure training so that the dog is allowed to make a choice, but you control the consequences so the dog isn't reinforced for making a bad choice. For example, if I'm training a sit stay with distractions with a very young pup, I might drop a piece of kibble by my foot. If the pup stays put, I say "good" to mark the correct choice and he gets a tasty little morsel. +R. If he starts to move, I just put my food over the kibble. -P. Different consequences for different behaviors. That's what operant conditioning is all about. In this example, I'm not controlling the dog. I'm controlling the consequences he experiences. He learns that self control is the route to what he wants. Being impulsive gets him nothing. I think preventing the dog from being reinforced from bad behavioral choices is important even if you're using all four quadrants.

    If you study the methods of people who are training effectively using mainly +R and -P, you'll find that they're obsessive about knowing what's reinforcing to their dog in any given situation, and about preventing--to the extent possible--their dogs from being reinforced from bad behavioral choices. You'll also find the vast majority of these folks in sports like agility and freestyle, where the competition environment is relatively sterile compared to what dogs experience in the field and the handler is working close to the dog, making it is far easier to manage the dog's access to reinforcement. Also, in those sports, you are to a large extent building novel behaviors for which there's no inherent reinforcement value for the dog, and must supply reinforcement to build the dog's motivation for the behavior. There's some of this in field work, of course...but you're also working with behaviors that have high reinforcement value in of themselves, like chasing prey.

    I think there's a tendency among people who come to field work from sports where they've been successful using mainly +R and -P to assume they can just export their methods wholesale without thinking about the many things that are different between their old sport and field work. IMO it's better to think about where the methods might be effective, and where they might fall short. In my experience, tools like markers are really helpful in the initial training of obedience behaviors like heeling where the behavior itself is not inherently reinforcing, and where it's helpful to be able to communicate precisely when the dog is doing the correct behavior. Once you start moving basic trained behaviors into the field, you're dealing more with behavior chains where one behavior reinforces another and I don't see much use, if any, for markers.

    In the case of the dog scooting at the line, I don't think it matters whether you've done your training with a clicker or an e-collar. If you allow the dog to scoot, and then re-heel, and then send him, he's just learned something you didn't want him to learn. He's learned that the standards at tests or trials are different than they are in training. Maybe next time he'll creep further to see if that works. If you let him retrieve, he learns it does. Maybe the next time he'll experiment with breaking. So yes, if the dog does not meet criteria, I'd thank the judges, leash the dog, and walk back to the truck. I've done that. I don't want to start my dog down the slippery slope of learning that standards are different in competition than they are in training. You're not throwing your entry fee away. You're making in investment in future success.

  9. #249
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    Quote Originally Posted by gdgnyc View Post
    I think that the retrieve is a very powerful tool in training a dog that loves to retrieve and fits in nicely with Jennifer's training philosophy. Retrieve for reward, removal for punishment.

    To the critics:
    How have you corrected your dog to steady it---heeling stick, collar correction, prevention of retrieve, something else? How have you gotten your dog steady to flush? I am all for using anything that works and I am open to trying new things and evaluating them.

    How many new techniques have you tried?

    For the record, I am not critical of anyone's training style. I personally don't like to be committed to one style, I like to have an open mind which I feel will help me grow as a trainer.

    To quote someone whom I respect: "Be married to your goal, not your style of training."
    Teaching a dog steady to flush AND SHOT is relatively simple if the dog will sit on a whistle.

    WRL

  10. #250
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    Quote Originally Posted by FinnLandR View Post
    Devil's Advocate: would Susan's scenario, above, be where the tone functions on ecollars would come into play?
    I still don't think the tone functions on e-collars simulate or condition the dog for the physical and mental pressure of great distance, tight set ups, and 4-5 birds in the field at one time. I would consider that more in the realm of clicker, praise, etc. I do understand where you are going ie: carrying the tone with you on the collar would be like carrying the clicker per se, but the discipline and pressure needed as I've described - I don't believe it would be a useful tool. Again, go for it. I just won't risk it.
    Last edited by JusticeDog; 12-11-2012 at 12:04 PM.
    Susan

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