The RetrieverTraining.Net Forums The Retriever Academy
Total Retriever Training with Mike Lardy
Hawkeye Media Gunners Up Tritronics Gun Dog Broker
Page 27 of 34 FirstFirst ... 172526272829 ... LastLast
Results 261 to 270 of 333

Thread: British Labs / No Force????

  1. #261
    Senior Member gdgnyc's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    NY
    Posts
    2,239

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Flint View Post
    Itís pretty easy to get a birdy dog to sit when he scents a bird using 2Q methods only, but as he getís more experience at it, it will tend to slow his flush to the point (no pun intended) where he slows down on the way in rather than accelerating into the flush as is required in the Springer games that I play.

    If a bold flush isnít important to you however, itís probably the more reliable method to use.
    Dave, one of the things I like is a bold flush. I have hunted over several springers and that is exactly the kind of work I like to see.
    "I love the rod and gun and where they take me."

  2. #262
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Posts
    264

    Default

    There a difference between bribery and reward but your point Is well taken.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Flint View Post
    Good post Scott,

    “Positive Only” is the preferred approach of many parents too these days but consider the case where a mother tells her young son that if he’ll clean up his room she’ll take him to the pool. When she checks on him later, she finds that he hasn’t done what he was told so she informs him that they’re not going. Don't you think the child (assuming that he really wants to go swimming) sees this as punishment?

    If so, then isn't the only difference between what the modern mother does & what my mother would have done (P+) in how the modern mother feels about herself?

    Author Alfie Kohn in his book, Punished by Rewards makes the case that
    “Punishment and rewards are two sides of the same coin.”

  3. #263
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2003
    Location
    Charlotte, NC
    Posts
    172

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer Henion View Post
    I've made no secret of the fact that I've only achieved a JH title. And that was on the dog described as heeling in the hotel. He is now 3 and too slow and showy for field work.
    Jen
    Quote Originally Posted by Gun_Dog2002 View Post
    Which is great if the dogs only drive in the world is a piece of fake bacon and the soothing sound of a piece of plastic clicking in their ear. I prefer to train high drive bird dogs with much more intense desires than that...

    /Paul
    Isnt this really the crux of the matter and why there is so much difference of opinion on the subject. Ultimately clicker training on its own has not proved itself to be suitably efffective in US FT training.
    The proof is in the pudding. Everyone would have jumped on the bandwagon if it were effective. Its not a new science after all.

    Mark

  4. #264
    Senior Member Dave Flint's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Central Texas
    Posts
    497

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by gdgnyc View Post
    Dave, one of the things I like is a bold flush. I have hunted over several springers and that is exactly the kind of work I like to see.
    I just threw that out there as a warning because of the Springer in your Avatar.

    Several years ago, I tried it on a very nice Springer pup because as you know, a “soft flush” is probably the #1 reason good dogs wash out of the Field Trial game. I made the assumption that the most common cause of it was inappropriate or excessive pressure during the steadying process so I thought I’d avoid that by using only P+. What I noticed is that as the dog learned that sitting at the flush meant that he’d get the reinforcement of a retrieve, he started to anticipate that he’d want to sit as soon as he made game.

    Although the pup initially had a bold flush, it progressively slowed down until it looked “tentative”. This was clearly not a case of a soft dog blinking birds, in fact it was the opposite. The dog loved birds so much he was trying extra hard to make sure he got the retrieve.

    From that experiment I learned that in order to develop & maintain the Bold flush required, I need to first encourage a dog by letting him catch clip winged pigeons often enough to keep him thinking that if he tries hard enough, he can snatch them from before they get away and to use aversives to keep him right on the “edge of control”. The 2Q approach, while effective in teaching the dog that “self-control brings a reward” is not appropriate for what I want in this case.
    Last edited by Dave Flint; 12-11-2012 at 02:49 PM.
    "The bird hunter watches only the dog, and always knows where the dog is, whether or not visible at the moment. The dogí nose is the bird hunters eye. Many hunters who carry a shotgun in season have never learned to watch the dog, or interpret his reaction to scent."
    Aldo Leopold, Round River

  5. #265

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer Henion View Post
    This thread is like a cocktail party. Lots of different discussions going on at once. Now where did I put my cocktail?
    Thats for sure!


    I am new to the forum and I posted this thread to get a some opinions, I would have never imagined it would go this long or be this controversial. However, I have read some interesting points on this topic and appreciate everyone's input..

    I would like to educate myself on some of these training methods. Whether or not I use them is to be seen. Knowledge has been an ongoing mission in my life and I am always learning from others, I don't see why these training methods should be any different.

    Does anyone have references to these training methods? Books ,videos, websites....

    I did order a copy of Robert Milners book and visited his website and watched some videos, I must say it's impressive!
    If you pick up a starving dog and make him prosperous, he will not bite you. This is the principal difference between a dog and a man.

  6. #266
    Senior Member polmaise's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Stirling Scotland
    Posts
    720

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Jonronamo View Post
    Thats for sure!


    I am new to the forum and I posted this thread to get a some opinions, I would have never imagined it would go this long or be this controversial. However, I have read some interesting points on this topic and appreciate everyone's input..

    I would like to educate myself on some of these training methods. Whether or not I use them is to be seen. Knowledge has been an ongoing mission in my life and I am always learning from others, I don't see why these training methods should be any different.

    Does anyone have references to these training methods? Books ,videos, websites....

    I did order a copy of Robert Milners book and visited his website and watched some videos, I must say it's impressive!
    Why don't you just book some lessons with a 'Trainer'?...I imagine websites and videos would get you as much of a 'cocktail' as the thread?..Anyhow! At least you would be working with 'the dog in front of you'?...rather than some-one else's?..Just a thought!
    One Shooter One Spaniel One Retriever

  7. #267
    Senior Member JusticeDog's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Location
    Illinois/Wisconsin
    Posts
    6,071

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by sixpacklabs View Post
    Close but no cigar It's positive reinforcement and negative punishment. The example you gave of the rat getting his nose whacked would be positive punishment (positive because you added something, the nose whack) if in the future the rat was less likely to touch the lever because he got his nose whacked. Negative punishment involves removing something the animal desires or expects. For example, you toss a bumper, the puppy scoots forward and you go pick up the bumper. If the behavior of scooting forward decreases in the future, denying the retrieve was negative punishment.

    The first post in the sticky "Simplifying Dog Learning Science" has definitions of these terms, gives some examples, and explains a bit about operant conditioning.
    Honey, I studied B.F Skinner and Operant conditioning in college probably before you were born. My rat made it through all of his mazes in 3 weeks. what's your record? while the words may be different the principles are the same. People always re-package stuff and try to re-submit it as new. Kinda like Bell Bottoms...
    Susan

    FC Tribute to Justice, JH "Honor"
    FC Contempt of Court "Ruckus"
    www.justiceretrievers.com

  8. #268
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Location
    Southern Ontario
    Posts
    226

    Default

    Thanks Susan for your reply to +R and -P.....just wanted to make sure I understood the symbols.

  9. #269
    Senior Member Howard N's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    Anchorage, AK
    Posts
    7,688

    Default

    Now where did I put my cocktail?
    Yeah, RTF has made me forget things and driven me to drink on a few occasions too.
    Howard Niemi

    You really gotta be careful about how high a pedestal you put your method, your accomplishments, your dog on. There's usually someone who's done more, somewhere. And they may have used a different method than you did! Chris Atkinson 2013

    get your dog out and TRAIN! caryalsobrook 2013

  10. #270
    Senior Member JS's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2003
    Location
    Iowa
    Posts
    2,246

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by rmilner View Post
    A compulsion trainer has to have a certain level of knowldege and certain level of skills to do a good job and produce a good product.

    A positive trainer has to have a certain level of knowledge and certain level of skills to do a good job and produce a good product.

    Being a good compulsion trainer does not make one a good positive trainer; being a good positive trainer does not make one a good compulsion trainer.
    Now there is something from Mr. Milner that I can agree with!!!

    But they are NOT mutually exclusive. In fact, without a doubt, the most successful, expedient ... and the fairest TO THE DOG ... scenario is a trainer that is good at both AND has the skill and experience to read the dog he/she is training.

    JS
    ďDonít wave your phony patriotism in MY face! If you really love America, open your wallet and hire an American kid to build what you buy. Think of all our problems that might solve.Ē Doug Fraser (paraphrased) 1980

    Real Americans buy American, though it may be too little too late now.



    Snowshoe's All American Guy SH, UDX, WCX ... CODY ... at the bridge
    CH. Snowshoe's Girl Crazy MH, UD, WCX, SDHF, OS ... PRESLEY
    Millpond's Baby Boomer MH*** ... BABE
    Snowshoe's Crazy For Lovin You SH ... NELSON

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •