British Labs / No Force????

[AmiableLabs]

Dogs quickly learn what is expected. I can let my dogs run the bank while hunting. Can a non decheated dog cut the corner of a body of water to avoid the broken glass on the bank? I know I can cast my dogs into the water if needed. I can also cast them onto the shore if that is more expedient. Training provides options.

You read my mind.

If you had not said it I would of. These creatures are amazing. They quickly learn what is expected of them and where as long the trainer/handler is consistent too.

[Evan]

You read my mind.

If you had not said it I would of. These creatures are amazing. They quickly learn what is expected of them and where as long the trainer/handler is consistent too.

And all we need do is train them to do it. What's really great is not one of them knows, or is concerned with whether or not they're British. Good training is good training wherever it occurs.

Evan

[Gun_Dog2002]

I disagree. Often times, running the bank will get you your injured teal much faster than the straight line taught for a FT. The steadiness requirement for a FT isn't sufficient for sitting quietly in the duck hole for 45 minutes of no activity. Etc etc.

It is a well known fact that even dogs who marked the fall, when caving to factors often times get lost and need to handled. Now instead of a nice quiet retrieve in the marsh I got some yahoo standing up blowing whistles the dog won't take, yelling "over", walking out into the pond and disrupting the whole bloody hunt. You can build a case for why letting your dog do all that crap is "better" but i'll never believe it. I have standards of what I want out a nice days hunt and its often disrupted by the yahoo's and their bank running mutt across the pond...

/Paul

[DarrinGreene]

Not quite sure I would go as far as you to say it was the single best video out there. It certainly is good but I would want to see more and how it would work or apply to my attention deficit dog.
I don't have a medium or a dog that sits by the fireplace. I have a high drive and desire dog who is 1 1/2 yo with no focus. I was impressed though how he talked about getting the dogs attention. I don't like to feed food mongers however which is what my pup is!!
If you do with hold the reward until he performs the command he may loose focus with that game. Training has to be kept short and varied. He is on his own planet still trying to run the show. But to treat, treat to teach the command and wait until he complies with a food monger??with no focus??.
He is a very reactive dog and will be paying attention to the food IMHO. And I know he mentions the dog eventually goes from being reactive to an active dog but I think that could be difficult with this pup and problem dogs.
There are some good things about the video I would apply. Timing of his yes and good response might capture dogs attention. And I assume you don't need to treat with food for his system to work.
Was not sure I like the idea of when he tells his dog down way out, then lets the dog know he is right, the reward yes and the dog runs in to get the treat? That is not a good application.
If I whistle sit my dog way out on a blind and he sits promptly and I say yes or good which is what I do b/c it signals to him you were good sitting not to come running in! So I was interested how you would stop that from occurring. I am always thinking how is that going to help me attain my goals with my dog in what ever venue I enter. It has to be applicable and doable, easy and acceptable for my dog.

IMHO some pups need a little more than treats. No offence to Ellis, he did speak about that firmness on the video. Need to see more on that subject, other problematic behaviors and more info on his methods! Very interesting video, however.

Mary your dog's lack of attention is probably a matter of lacking training at an early age. Sorry to say it but you probably missed the opportunity to get that element built in. Ellis somewhere else tells you that NOTHING happens until you have attention mastered. I think there's actually a free video on the importance of engagement where he goes over this. Some dogs may not begin real "training" until 8 months because they lack the engagement needed, if I recall that video correctly. We are all anxious to get things going, myself included and tend not to have the patience to tackle this element fully.

As for the moving reward it is correct application and done that way on purpose. That is why there is a "good" marker and a "yes" marker. The "yes" marker releases the dog from a stationary position and the reward is delivered in motion to increase it's effectiveness. Chasing the reward is a self fulfilling activity, meaning the chase itself is a reward ON TOP of the food. Delivering rewards in motion increases motivation and builds drive in the dog. That's in the video on delivering rewards properly or the training dogs with food video, I forget which one. It's also very useful later because it's very easy to chain the dog's name or "back" over top of the release marker in field work.

I can only tell you from the one dog I have applied this to long term. It is an absolutely dynamic basis for Carr based retriever training. Once the communication system is in place it is very easy to work through the collar conditioning, force fetch and other elements of the program. The dog is not only engaged and paying attention, but they really understand what "good" and "yes" or "ok" mean, making life really easy. I'm in T work now and pup will look at the side piles once in a while but when she looks down the middle and I say "good" she locks on, ears up and gets ready to launch. That communication would still be in it's infancy had I not done my obedience using these markersand some other stuff I picked out of the Hillman videos.

I have used this system now on several pet dogs and find it extremely effective. I also teach a simplified version to clients and it works for them.

[DarrinGreene]

I did watch his philosophy video though.

That's the one I referred I'm not sure which one Mary was watching. You have to see several and pay for a couple of them to completely understand the system. Or in your case Pete, make up your own

[yellow machine]

Just had my 6 mo YLF in to the vet. She is seeing ACL problems with the Brit dogs as the lines in the hind quarters are to straight.

[Mary Lynn Metras]

That's the one I referred I'm not sure which one Mary was watching. You have to see several and pay for a couple of them to completely understand the system. Or in your case Pete, make up your own

Darrin I watched that one and their was one other on the site. I have to go back and view them a little closer. Thanks again. ML

[leo455]

I have 6 of Micheal Ellis Dvd's. He is very good at explaining the methodology of training with markers both + and -. His DVD on finishing work is one of the best out there. His "Engagement training" is the base of my puppy training.

[Swack]

Just had my 6 mo YLF in to the vet. She is seeing ACL problems with the Brit dogs as the lines in the hind quarters are to straight.

Yellow Machine,

The British field Labs I've seen tend to have much better rear angulation than do most AKC field Labs. Could be a particular strain of British Lab in your area that your Vet is seeing that lack rear angulation, however that is not my experience.

Swack

[Aussie]

UK labradors would not win in US field trials?

US labradors would not win in UK field trial?

How many generations does it take to breed for type/a breed? Six generations, is that right, before they can apply to the Kennel Club?

So UK and US labradors could/would/should be different. Simple really.