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British Labs / No Force????

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#1 ·
Below is an article I found in Gun Dog magazine. I would like everyones thoughts on British Labs and British training methods that apparently "do not use force"?

Gun Dog Article:

There’s a new movement making British Style Field Trials popular again, along with the British strain of Labrador retriever. These Labs are largely born with the behavior of delivering retrieved objects to hand, making it unnecessary to force-fetch them. They are also bred to be calm companions as well as peak performers in the field, according to Robert Milner, who breeds British Labs at Duckhill Kennel. And from what I saw of his 5-week-old puppies to 5-year-old adults, it’s absolutely true.

The big attraction to these trials and British training methods, for me, was the lack of force training. No force to pile, force to water, force anything. For dogs bred to be highly trainable and good at hunting, like my golden, this philosophy says it’s not necessary to use force. It’s very believable after watching several British-trained dogs complete 175-yard blind retrieves through walls of 5-foot tall brush and woods, guided by whistle and hand signals, then stand at heel, steady as a rock, while they watch another dog work.
 
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#173 · (Edited)
Hotel4dogs posted
and while I'm chuckling at my own hypothetical example, it does still make me raise the question....is a dog capable of willful disobedience if his instinct level is high enough?
When we train (all of us, of no matter what religion!) we train according to the rules of Operant Conditioning. I've made the point in the past that no matter how good we are Ole Man Pavlov is sitting on our shoulder. If a dogs basic animal instincts come into collision with our wonderful efforts ... he wins. It's not IMO a matter of disobedience, just the real world biting us in the bum. We can attach as many labels to the behaviour as we want, but it won't stop Fido chasing after Fidoette is she's "in an interesting condition".

So whilst your post was indeed a bit of fun, it nevertheless made a very acute and valid point.

Eug
 
#178 ·
To say a dog is incapable of disobeying is to advocate they possess no will of their own;

To say a dog is capable of disobeying but will always choose not to, is naive to the point of absurdity.
 
#185 ·
On a second note, the water portion of that video, if the handler were to use NO VERBAL BACKS, just silent angle backs, do you all think he would get better direction change and possibly do that blind with half the whistles? Or not?
I thought so. Often vocals will tend to send the dog where it wanted to go.
 
#189 ·
I dont want to hyjack a very interesting thread... So,,,please dont respond to what I have to say..

I am very confused.

I didnt realise that there was this P+ P- R+R- stuff.
It intrigued me.

I took my Transmitter apart this morning to look to see what battery I had in mine... Its just +annd -

I will keep reading and reserching to figger out where Ya get the Alph designated batteties,, R and P

Very interesting thread.

Gooser
 
#192 · (Edited)
KM posted
So, if the game was on a direct line to the other bird, then that would be picked first, and the dog sent back for the longer bird. We do not want our dogs ignoring game here.
Err ... You are picking up behind the line with a dead bird or two lying in the open. Someone cripples a bird and brings it down with a dead bird(s) between you and it. I always aim to leave dead birds during the drive, and pick only runners and cripples. So I train a form of ladder drill with just that scenario in mind. Not uncommon.

It's only fair to say that now my lead dog has departed, of the two remaining one is reasonably sure to stop on the whistle by a dead bird and take a big "back" to a cripple, and one isn't!

Eug
 
#193 ·
KM posted

Err ... You are picking up behind the line with a dead bird or two lying in the open. Someone cripples a bird and brings it down with a dead bird(s) between you and it. I always aim to leave dead birds during the drive, and pick only runners and cripples. So I train a form of ladder drill with just that scenario in mind. Not uncommon.

It's only fair to say that now my lead dog has departed, of the two remaining one is reasonably sure to stop on the whistle by a dead bird and take a big "back" to a cripple, and one isn't!

Eug
I was referring specifically to trials and tests, where a dog would not be expected to ignore a bird it came across on its path (and would probably be penalised for so doing 'passing over game'). We don't send our dogs directly over dead birds to pick runners. We try to put them on a clear line. Doesn't always work...
 
#195 ·
at field trials over here we don't place poison birds directly on the path to a blind. We will however pluck duck feathers or dip a stinky duck in water and fling it around to Baptise the ground that is directly on the path to the blind.
I will say that a dog well trained on poison birds and understands the game can be handled off of a poison bird that is very close to the line.
I recall sitting in the field throwing a poison bird in towards the line to the blind. It fell within a few yards, way closer than you would want. Anyway, an accomplished field champion is running the blind and to my amazement as the dog approaches the poison bird, without breaking stride or even looking at the bird, she literally jumped over it and continued the blind. No lie.
 
#196 · (Edited)
34. Repeated evidence of poor nose is in itself sufficient justification for elimination from the stake. Because scenting conditions are affected by so many factors, Judges should exercise extreme caution in invoking this penalty


Perhaps she had a "poor nose" ;-)

john
 
#202 ·
You all are missing the point.
Anyway, to be clear, the PB was in plain sight lying on cut grass.
 
#206 ·
After being a pro for forty years and sending home dogs that were only going to make good house pets because lack of talent to be a good retriever. A high majority of British labs did not make it. I have have seen some good ones but not many.Your field labs are bred for the whole package.
Didn't make what? - all-age FT dogs or duck dogs? To get this thread back on track, maybe you used too much force, or electricity...(which, km, is not necessarily a good idea when teaching our kind of poison bird blinds).

MG
 
#211 · (Edited)
I have been training gundogs professionally since 1972. I have been importing and training British dogs of the field dog gene pool since the early 1980's. I have trained a large number of dogs from the American gene pool and a large number of dogs from the British gene pool. I have found that there is a conversion rate of nearly 100% of the British field bred pool into excellent gundogs. That is one of the reasons I like them. I have also found that many of the Briitsh dogs do not adapt well to some of the American training models.
 
#212 · (Edited)
I have been training gundogs professionally since 1972. I have been importing and training British dogs of the field dog gene pool since the early 1980's. I have trained a large number of dogs from the American gene pool and a large number of dogs from the British gene pool. I have found that there is a conversion rate of nearly 100% of the British field bred pool into excellent gundogs. That is one of the reasons I like them. I have also found that many of the Briitsh dogs do not adapt well to some of the American training models.
x2
They seem to hold really well and return to handler more consistently without training. I have done only a couple handfuls of British dogs and they were this way. As nice as they were they also as a whole forced more like a chessy or a rottweiler than an american lab meaning it seemed to break down down their enthusiasm. But I can't recall if they were strictly field bred or had show in them also,,,I guess that could make a difference.
Just my experience
pete
 
#213 · (Edited)
I am new to the forum and I posted this thread to get a some opinions, I would have never imagined it would go this long. However, I have read some interesting points on this topic and appreciate everyone's input..
I would like to educate myself on some of these training methods they use in Europe. Whether or not I use them is to be seen. Knowledge has been an ongoing mission in my life and I am always learning from others, I don't see why these training methods should be any different.
Does anyone have references to these training methods? Books ,videos, websites ..............
 
#214 ·
Considering I've FF'd and CC'd well over a 100 Brit dogs, including some imported and already titled in the UK, my experience may help the OP with his decision. Apples to apples, a UK FtCh can best be compared to a AKC SH. The SH in a test will get 4-6 marks, a couple of blinds, and a few diversions--resembling a actual day's hunt in the US. The FtCh will see many more birds, run a few blinds, and work a field in a group--resembling a actual day's hunt in the UK. Most would agree training to a SH level can be accomplished with little or no force. But training here or there does involve pressure, and the difference is in the application. Running out and giving a dog a good shake,imo, is intimidation with bad timing, and relies on the dog figuring out what's going on over time. To a properly collar conditioned dog, a well timed nic is no big deal, as they understand why, and how to turn it off. Using their selling points of a more intelligent, willing retriever, even helps the arguement to FF/CC, as smart/willing dogs breeze through pressure work when properly applied. Force fetch is just a game of Simon Says, with the dog learning sit,here, fetch, --and who Simon is...Brits learn to play the game quite well. Thrown into a one size fits all force program, would likely lead to bad results..
 
#222 ·
I find the comments about dogs not being able to disobey interesting. My personal thought is it depends on how they are trained. In order for a disobedience to occur, one must understand both right and wrong, as well as understand the consequences for right and wrong. In a true all positive environment, wrong is not taught nor are they consequences for wrong. All focus is given to enhancing the desired traits. So I get that there is no "disobeying." However in a balanced training program it is possible for a dog to disobey as they are trained right and wrong and the consequences that go with them.

/Paul
 
#227 ·
Nice post, /Paul. I would add that in a clicker training session, the dog does learn what "doesn't work" rather than what's "wrong". And as a consequence to do doing what "doesn't work" their treat or retrieve (reward) gets withheld. So if clicker training to heel: dog gets clicked and treated for walking at heel exactly correctly. If dog wanders ahead a bit, no click and no treat. Human stops to wait for right behavior, Dog learns and comes back to heel to get the human to click/treat.

Even though dog is not taught "Wrong = punishment" dog does learn "what doesn't work = no reward"
 
#241 ·
And this is the crux of the force vs no force debate, isn't it. The answer it seems, is that it depends on the trainer's skill and the dog at hand. As well as the nature of the reward. Is it a tiny milk bone, or is it the promise of a duck to fetch?

I use the treat/reward training to teach new skills and then reinforce that learned skill when tacking on a new skill.

Like heeling to the line for a mark. I clicker/treat trained my pup to heel and it worked great. Then we tacked on the heel to the holding blind then holding blind to line, steadiness on line til sent for mark. Never seen a dog LOVE getting in the holding blind as much as this pup. She knows that each step in the chain is getting her closer to that ultimate reward of the mark/retrieve. If she fails to do a step, no retrieve. Boring. That's enough for her. BUT, we developed the right habits and expectations VERY EARLY ON.

Clicker training is not just: grab any ole treat and go outside and see if the dog will do what you want, instead of what HE wants. It's a process and technique that has to be followed properly in order to get the right results - just like with ecollar training or any punishment based training. I promise that once a dog knows what the clicker means, and the trainer know what they are doing, the dog will very focused on trying to figure out what you're trying to train him.

As for the debate on whether a dog will purposely disobey a known command, I think it's possible, but I think it's more about the choices presented to the dog and which choice is most rewarding. Is it 1.) humping the female in standing heat right next to him or 2.) Being told to stay at heel and get a click treat while a female in heat is standing next to him?

I have stayed in several hotels with my 3 yr old golden and can easily heel him past the open breakfast area with waffle and bacon smell, children and people saying how cute he is. He was clicker trained to heel and finds it very rewarding to be with me in training mode.
How has your young dog done in competition? The reason I ask, it that the level of excitement get raised considerably and the distraction level is raised exponentially.

I know LOTS of dogs that are model citizens in the home, in the hotel or even in training but when the day for the event comes, they are jumping out of their skin.

If your dog scoots on the line at an event (or any behavior that in training you would not reward), have you heeled them off the line and said "Thanks for your time judges I am not going to run my dog."

How have you handled this situation where the dog has to contain ITSELF and not be restrained physically or verbally by you?

WRL
 
#248 ·
How has your young dog done in competition? The reason I ask, it that the level of excitement get raised considerably and the distraction level is raised exponentially.

I know LOTS of dogs that are model citizens in the home, in the hotel or even in training but when the day for the event comes, they are jumping out of their skin.

If your dog scoots on the line at an event (or any behavior that in training you would not reward), have you heeled them off the line and said "Thanks for your time judges I am not going to run my dog."

How have you handled this situation where the dog has to contain ITSELF and not be restrained physically or verbally by you?

WRL
You touch on something extremely important to training mainly with +R and -P that's ignored by many or glossed over, and that is the necessity of preventing--to the extent possible--your dog from being reinforced from behaviors you don't like or that don't meet criteria for the behavior you're training. You structure training so that the dog is allowed to make a choice, but you control the consequences so the dog isn't reinforced for making a bad choice. For example, if I'm training a sit stay with distractions with a very young pup, I might drop a piece of kibble by my foot. If the pup stays put, I say "good" to mark the correct choice and he gets a tasty little morsel. +R. If he starts to move, I just put my food over the kibble. -P. Different consequences for different behaviors. That's what operant conditioning is all about. In this example, I'm not controlling the dog. I'm controlling the consequences he experiences. He learns that self control is the route to what he wants. Being impulsive gets him nothing. I think preventing the dog from being reinforced from bad behavioral choices is important even if you're using all four quadrants.

If you study the methods of people who are training effectively using mainly +R and -P, you'll find that they're obsessive about knowing what's reinforcing to their dog in any given situation, and about preventing--to the extent possible--their dogs from being reinforced from bad behavioral choices. You'll also find the vast majority of these folks in sports like agility and freestyle, where the competition environment is relatively sterile compared to what dogs experience in the field and the handler is working close to the dog, making it is far easier to manage the dog's access to reinforcement. Also, in those sports, you are to a large extent building novel behaviors for which there's no inherent reinforcement value for the dog, and must supply reinforcement to build the dog's motivation for the behavior. There's some of this in field work, of course...but you're also working with behaviors that have high reinforcement value in of themselves, like chasing prey.

I think there's a tendency among people who come to field work from sports where they've been successful using mainly +R and -P to assume they can just export their methods wholesale without thinking about the many things that are different between their old sport and field work. IMO it's better to think about where the methods might be effective, and where they might fall short. In my experience, tools like markers are really helpful in the initial training of obedience behaviors like heeling where the behavior itself is not inherently reinforcing, and where it's helpful to be able to communicate precisely when the dog is doing the correct behavior. Once you start moving basic trained behaviors into the field, you're dealing more with behavior chains where one behavior reinforces another and I don't see much use, if any, for markers.

In the case of the dog scooting at the line, I don't think it matters whether you've done your training with a clicker or an e-collar. If you allow the dog to scoot, and then re-heel, and then send him, he's just learned something you didn't want him to learn. He's learned that the standards at tests or trials are different than they are in training. Maybe next time he'll creep further to see if that works. If you let him retrieve, he learns it does. Maybe the next time he'll experiment with breaking. So yes, if the dog does not meet criteria, I'd thank the judges, leash the dog, and walk back to the truck. I've done that. I don't want to start my dog down the slippery slope of learning that standards are different in competition than they are in training. You're not throwing your entry fee away. You're making in investment in future success.
 
#231 ·
One of my Australian friends has recently imported semen from an UK kennel. She chose the naughty boy...not the Field Champions. She liked the manic desire...which MAY not be highly regarded/selected - for top trial dogs or prospects.

I am looking forward to FINALLY seeing UK field labradors myself next May.
 
#233 ·
Jennifer I think the clicker and reward based training have their place and I'm sure it works better on some dogs then others but I think if the distraction is great enough most dogs are going to not obey immediately. If you have a dog that likes to chase cats or rabbits and it's been e collar trained when it take off to chase something and you yell NO HERE!!! he knows whats coming next if it doesn't stop. But a dog that has only done things for a reward and not because he has to might decide that chasing the cat is a better reward and keeps on running across the road right in front of a car.
 
#237 ·
Jennifer I think the clicker and reward based training have their place and I'm sure it works better on some dogs then others but I think if the distraction is great enough most dogs are going to not obey immediately. If you have a dog that likes to chase cats or rabbits and it's been e collar trained when it take off to chase something and you yell NO HERE!!! he knows whats coming next if it doesn't stop. But a dog that has only done things for a reward and not because he has to might decide that chasing the cat is a better reward and keeps on running across the road right in front of a car.
Or that the 4 yr old at the hotel holding a stick of bacon at breakfast and running toward the dog is a better reward. That's when I say "NO". Don't have to say it loud, just with meaning!

I think I likely have an unfair advantage, I'm with my dogs at home, at work and while traveling, due to the nature of my business (dogs). So we have about 10,000 opportunities a day to train and learn boundaries.

The clicker training works, but I also use No, blocking and redirection. Timing is everything!

Jen
 
#235 ·
I would like everyones thoughts on British Labs and British training methods that apparently "do not use force"?
Each to his own Buddy!..If it works then do it!?
Never needed to 'encourage' one to do what they were bred to do though?



No matter the breed!

...
And especially if you start em right at the very beginning?;)
 
#243 ·
I think that the retrieve is a very powerful tool in training a dog that loves to retrieve and fits in nicely with Jennifer's training philosophy. Retrieve for reward, removal for punishment.

To the critics:
How have you corrected your dog to steady it---heeling stick, collar correction, prevention of retrieve, something else? How have you gotten your dog steady to flush? I am all for using anything that works and I am open to trying new things and evaluating them.

How many new techniques have you tried?

For the record, I am not critical of anyone's training style. I personally don't like to be committed to one style, I like to have an open mind which I feel will help me grow as a trainer.

To quote someone whom I respect: "Be married to your goal, not your style of training."
 
#245 · (Edited)
a rope and let the bird fly away. Have a clipped wing pigeon in your pocket. When dog is steady to flush, (bird MUST fly away, this is where homing pigeons are handy) you throw clipped wing pigeon and bang. If dog is not stead all it sees is the bird fly away. Do this a million times. There. I know a positive training method. But, someone will probably not call this positive I'm certain.
 
#246 ·
I am all for positive training in the obedience ring, the agility ring, around the house, etc. But dogs cannot hear a clicker at 450 yards. I have seen it happen before with obedience/positive trainers that think they can train for field trials in the same manner. At 450 yards, or when the mental pressure is on the dog, is when the wheels fall off. These dogs lives are too short to risk a talented dog in this manner IMHO. To have to go and try and retrain the dog at 3 or 4 years old, FF it, etc, is just unfair at that point in time. You loose a lot of competitive time. It's all a form of operant conditioning however. It's just a matter of a difference in the stimuli.

So, I know for sure I won't be doing it. Just have seen too many good trainers have it blow up in their faces. But, if it works for you, I'll be one of the first to applaude your success.
 
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#250 · (Edited)
I still don't think the tone functions on e-collars simulate or condition the dog for the physical and mental pressure of great distance, tight set ups, and 4-5 birds in the field at one time. I would consider that more in the realm of clicker, praise, etc. I do understand where you are going ie: carrying the tone with you on the collar would be like carrying the clicker per se, but the discipline and pressure needed as I've described - I don't believe it would be a useful tool. Again, go for it. I just won't risk it.
 
#252 ·
I'm just wondering why people that use positive only training by that I mean no e collar or pressure to make the dog comply to your commands just a reward bases. Use that type of method do you believe it makes for a better trained dog or do you feel it's cruel to use pressure on a dog? The reason I ask is I don't believe some people realize what causes pressure for a dog. If I send my dog on a blind and he takes a poor initial line and I stop him and call him back to resend him that puts more pressure on him then if I would have stopped him given him a nick and cast him back. There are a lot of ways to put pressure on a dog with out using an e collar or a stick and I don't think some people realize what constitutes pressure to their dog and are putting them under pressure with out realizing it.
 
#257 · (Edited)
Good post Scott,

“Positive Only” is the preferred approach of many parents too these days but consider the case where a mother tells her young son that if he’ll clean up his room she’ll take him to the pool. When she checks on him later, she finds that he hasn’t done what he was told so she informs him that they’re not going. Don't you think the child (assuming that he really wants to go swimming) sees this as punishment?

If so, then isn't the only difference between what the modern mother does & what my mother would have done (P+) in how the modern mother feels about herself?

Author Alfie Kohn in his book, Punished by Rewards makes the case that
“Punishment and rewards are two sides of the same coin.”
 
#265 ·
Thats for sure!


I am new to the forum and I posted this thread to get a some opinions, I would have never imagined it would go this long or be this controversial. However, I have read some interesting points on this topic and appreciate everyone's input..

I would like to educate myself on some of these training methods. Whether or not I use them is to be seen. Knowledge has been an ongoing mission in my life and I am always learning from others, I don't see why these training methods should be any different.

Does anyone have references to these training methods? Books ,videos, websites....

I did order a copy of Robert Milners book and visited his website and watched some videos, I must say it's impressive!
 
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