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Thread: British Labs / No Force????

  1. #161
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    Yes, I'm wondering just how big that piece of cooked sausage would have to be???!!... LOL

  2. #162
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    Quote Originally Posted by sixpacklabs View Post
    Kennel Maiden,
    I enjoyed it as well. Thank you for taking the time to post. If you're still following this thread, I'd be very interested in learning a little bit more about the methods you use to train for blind retrieves, in particular how you begin training young dogs. Thank you!
    I think there is a lot we can learn from each other. The reason I am here is to keep learning and improving the way I train and teach things. Sharing thoughts, ideas, tips and techniques is useful for all of us. I've bought a US book (Gwaltney), but haven't got around to reading it yet, and I would love to see some of your training DVDs, but I am not sure they are available in PAL (rather than NTSC)? The US route is so much more structured and methodical (everyone seems to be on some sort of 'programme' or other, with clear steps along the way). There is just nothing comparable here - although I have thought about doing it!!! (it's a lot of work though)

    My own method of training for blinds, is to build confidence and length, on Memory Marks, and then gradually phasing this to Memory Blinds and then cold blinds. We get the dogs powering out to white dummies that they can see too, and also run them either to a white pole, or to 'confidence areas' where they have picked successfully previously. So the basis of all our training for blinds is about building confidence and trust, in that when I put my arm down to line the dog, it KNOWS there is something there to go for because there is always something there....

    Hard to write it down! So, with young dogs I put out a mark, walk away from it with the dog to whatever distance (as far as I know it will confidently remember and go back), then turn around and fire the dog back. But, in sending it back I rather 'over egg the cake' by taking my time and giving a very definite line out (even though it can possibly see or def remember the mark), so that it gets into a 'habit' of when I line like that there is something there. This eventually translates onto full blinds, and is the same sendaway.

  3. #163
    Senior Member BonMallari's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mary Lynn Metras View Post
    Not sure why folks are not open to other people’s training methods!or ideas or suggestions??

    .
    for the same reason people bristle when your challenge their practice of their chosen religion...You are challenging the very core of what they believe and what they are taught, any deviation from that is thought to be blasphemy, and when people get challenged they get very defensive, its just human nature


    and as for the use of the command "leave it"...there may come a time where "leave it' as opposed to "No" might come in handy...even though it may not used anymore, there used to be a time when one might see a pair of marks being thrown and then the dog is asked to run a blind, and then pick up the marks....If you told the dog NO instead of "leave it", how could you then tell the dog to retrieve something you had previously said no to....
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  4. #164
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mary Lynn Metras View Post
    Not sure why folks are not open to other people’s training methods!or ideas or suggestions??
    I think some people are closed minded or don't have time or interest in alternate methods when they have one that works. They are quite happy with thier dogs and training and just can't be bothered. However, for those with an interest in learning new things, it's still pretty easy to get closed off to a new method when the person presenting it is clearly satisfying their own emotional needs, vs. the training of the dog, with the method they choose. The main thing I'm talking about there is that it sure seems like the +r crowd, by and large anthropomorphize their dogs in such a way as to be closed off to any method which includes aversive stimuli.

    You hear a lot of "to each their own", but that seems to be their way (usually) of avoiding an argument they can't win because their choice of training method is neither practical or scientific, but rather emotional.

    Because of this intense emotional motivation, I think people tend to tune out the constant noise. Beyond that, the emotional nature of it leads people to criticize the practices of others, which again leads to a division in the ranks.

    If you've chosen +r exclusively as your method, I know it's either an emotional marketing ploy (newest thing in pet dog training) or a personal emotional choice on your part. I know this because I routinely shape behaviors quickly and efficiently using a combination of +r and -r in dogs that have been through a +r program and are now completely out of the owner's control. The only good news for me then is that person has now learned that those treats have a value, but only so much, so when I solve the problem, they are happy and don't care how I did it (which isn't an excuse for me to be inhumane or unfair to the dog, BTW).
    Last edited by DarrinGreene; 12-08-2012 at 11:42 AM.
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    and while I'm chuckling at my own hypothetical example, it does still make me raise the question....is a dog capable of willfull disobedience if his instinct level is high enough?
    I believe yes. I believe there are times when a dog's instincts or desires will over-ride all training, he will look right at you, and disobey a command. The expected reward is greater than the expected "other reward" that you are offering (or punishment if that's the training method).
    I know my dog is certainly not unique in that he will refuse all food in the presence of an attractive female...or a bird. That piece of sausage could be as big as he is and he wouldn't even contemplate it.
    edit to add...I am being deliberately obtuse just because I don't think you can say a dog will "NEVER" deliberately disobey. I do think that almost all of the time they disobey because they didn't understand something, or didn't truly know the command. But I also think that there are times when they just get that look in their eye and flip you the middle toe.
    Last edited by hotel4dogs; 12-08-2012 at 11:41 AM.

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  6. #166
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    Quote Originally Posted by BonMallari View Post
    for the same reason people bristle when your challenge their practice of their chosen religion...You are challenging the very core of what they believe and what they are taught, any deviation from that is thought to be blasphemy, and when people get challenged they get very defensive, its just human nature


    and as for the use of the command "leave it"...there may come a time where "leave it' as opposed to "No" might come in handy...even though it may not used anymore, there used to be a time when one might see a pair of marks being thrown and then the dog is asked to run a blind, and then pick up the marks....If you told the dog NO instead of "leave it", how could you then tell the dog to retrieve something you had previously said no to....
    Yes, that philosophy is why many here don't use either 'leave it' or 'no' when taking the blind over the distraction(s), because you might later be asking the dog to fetch that, so is thought to cause confusion for the dog. I'm not sure whether it does or doesn't, I just prefer to keep it simple and not do it. Also, if you have a 'hot' dog and you go to line it to the 'poison bird' and cue 'leave it' in so doing, some trigger-happy dogs will think you are sending them for it just as the word 'leave...' escapes your mouth!

    Personally, I think it looks neater to just line the dog for what you want, but each to their own, and most judges here wouldn't penalise for using 'leave it', although it does sound a bit novicey.

  7. #167
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    Quote Originally Posted by hotel4dogs View Post
    and while I'm chuckling at my own hypothetical example, it does still make me raise the question....is a dog capable of willfull disobedience if his instinct level is high enough?
    I believe yes. I believe there are times when a dog's instincts or desires will over-ride all training, he will look right at you, and disobey a command. The expected reward is greater than the expected "other reward" that you are offering (or punishment if that's the training method).
    I know my dog is certainly not unique in that he will refuse all food in the presence of an attractive female...or a bird. That piece of sausage could be as big as he is and he wouldn't even contemplate it.
    They'll run right through a very hot underground fence in that case as well, but then many a man has made a dumb decision in the face of similar value rewards.
    Darrin Greene

  8. #168
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    Quote Originally Posted by kennel maiden View Post
    Yes, that philosophy is why many here don't use either 'leave it' or 'no' when taking the blind over the distraction(s), because you might later be asking the dog to fetch that, so is thought to cause confusion for the dog. I'm not sure whether it does or doesn't, I just prefer to keep it simple and not do it. Also, if you have a 'hot' dog and you go to line it to the 'poison bird' and cue 'leave it' in so doing, some trigger-happy dogs will think you are sending them for it just as the word 'leave...' escapes your mouth!

    Personally, I think it looks neater to just line the dog for what you want, but each to their own, and most judges here wouldn't penalise for using 'leave it', although it does sound a bit novicey.
    But if the poison bird is on/near the line to the blind you need to cue the dog that it is to ignore the mark. The dog needs to learn exactly what "dead bird" means, I am telling my young dog "leave it" for now as I (try) to teach her to run poison bird blinds in which she is practically stepping on the poison bird on the way to the blind.
    Last edited by mitty; 12-08-2012 at 11:57 AM.
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  9. #169
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    Quote Originally Posted by kennel maiden View Post
    Personally, I think it looks neater to just line the dog for what you want, but each to their own, and most judges here wouldn't penalise for using 'leave it', although it does sound a bit novicey.
    It does look neater for a dog to line the blind but its very very unlikely a dog is going to line an AA blind here in the US.

    Your game doesn't really even resemble our game.

    The way you guys hunt, doesn't resemble the majority of hunting here.

    Its two different games.

    WRL

  10. #170
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    Willful disobedience is required of dogs that lead a blind individual. I believe they look for that in the dog to disobey a command.
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