British Labs / No Force????

[Aussie]

One of my Australian friends has recently imported semen from an UK kennel. She chose the naughty boy...not the Field Champions. She liked the manic desire...which MAY not be highly regarded/selected - for top trial dogs or prospects.

I am looking forward to FINALLY seeing UK field labradors myself next May.

[Jennifer Henion]

But is withholding a treat enough of an incentive to make some dogs do the right thing I know my dog would forgo a treat to go sniff and pee on a tree when being asked to heel. I think if you want reliable results from your dog they need to know the consequences for the wrong behavior or more sever then not getting a treat.

And this is the crux of the force vs no force debate, isn't it. The answer it seems, is that it depends on the trainer's skill and the dog at hand. As well as the nature of the reward. Is it a tiny milk bone, or is it the promise of a duck to fetch?

I use the treat/reward training to teach new skills and then reinforce that learned skill when tacking on a new skill.

Like heeling to the line for a mark. I clicker/treat trained my pup to heel and it worked great. Then we tacked on the heel to the holding blind then holding blind to line, steadiness on line til sent for mark. Never seen a dog LOVE getting in the holding blind as much as this pup. She knows that each step in the chain is getting her closer to that ultimate reward of the mark/retrieve. If she fails to do a step, no retrieve. Boring. That's enough for her. BUT, we developed the right habits and expectations VERY EARLY ON.

Clicker training is not just: grab any ole treat and go outside and see if the dog will do what you want, instead of what HE wants. It's a process and technique that has to be followed properly in order to get the right results - just like with ecollar training or any punishment based training. I promise that once a dog knows what the clicker means, and the trainer know what they are doing, the dog will very focused on trying to figure out what you're trying to train him.

As for the debate on whether a dog will purposely disobey a known command, I think it's possible, but I think it's more about the choices presented to the dog and which choice is most rewarding. Is it 1.) humping the female in standing heat right next to him or 2.) Being told to stay at heel and get a click treat while a female in heat is standing next to him?

I have stayed in several hotels with my 3 yr old golden and can easily heel him past the open breakfast area with waffle and bacon smell, children and people saying how cute he is. He was clicker trained to heel and finds it very rewarding to be with me in training mode.

[Scott Parker]

Jennifer I think the clicker and reward based training have their place and I'm sure it works better on some dogs then others but I think if the distraction is great enough most dogs are going to not obey immediately. If you have a dog that likes to chase cats or rabbits and it's been e collar trained when it take off to chase something and you yell NO HERE!!! he knows whats coming next if it doesn't stop. But a dog that has only done things for a reward and not because he has to might decide that chasing the cat is a better reward and keeps on running across the road right in front of a car.

[polmaise]

Kept telling you, the laird would've loved having title to the first Scottish Boykin -



- as for force, fugeddaboutit - they're already a force of nature.

MG

You don't have a pic of one retrieving a 'Kipper', Do You?.......Or 'Red Herring will do'?
This one came back with the box!..Well Kippered! I'd say?

Mind you?> this wee one don't need no force!...It's forcing itself into training on it's own?...with all the gear to 'Boot'!

[polmaise]

I would like everyones thoughts on British Labs and British training methods that apparently "do not use force"?

Each to his own Buddy!..If it works then do it!?
Never needed to 'encourage' one to do what they were bred to do though?



No matter the breed!

...
And especially if you start em right at the very beginning?

[Mary Lynn Metras]

Nice pictures! Thanks for sharing those. Cute bLab.

I wasn't going to post this but I will. Interesting!! Not for everyone now! This is by the fellow who wrote Positive Gundog Training. Just FYI.

http://www.clickertraining.com/node/1134

[Jennifer Henion]

Jennifer I think the clicker and reward based training have their place and I'm sure it works better on some dogs then others but I think if the distraction is great enough most dogs are going to not obey immediately. If you have a dog that likes to chase cats or rabbits and it's been e collar trained when it take off to chase something and you yell NO HERE!!! he knows whats coming next if it doesn't stop. But a dog that has only done things for a reward and not because he has to might decide that chasing the cat is a better reward and keeps on running across the road right in front of a car.

Or that the 4 yr old at the hotel holding a stick of bacon at breakfast and running toward the dog is a better reward. That's when I say "NO". Don't have to say it loud, just with meaning!

I think I likely have an unfair advantage, I'm with my dogs at home, at work and while traveling, due to the nature of my business (dogs). So we have about 10,000 opportunities a day to train and learn boundaries.

The clicker training works, but I also use No, blocking and redirection. Timing is everything!

Jen

[hotel4dogs]

I still think it comes down to the basic instincts in the dog.
My boy, too, has no problem heeling past breakfast (or any food), in a hotel or anywhere. He will do a down-stay or sit-stay, with me out of sight, and not touch food that's left on the floor right in front of him if he has been told to leave it alone. (He was not clicker trained, though).
But when very strong basic instincts come into play, such as breeding or, believe it or not, prey drive if feathers are involved, all bets are off. You could offer him any treat you can think of, and he would literally spit it out onto the floor. I can't train him with treats at all in field, he wants nothing to do with them if there are birds (or bitches) nearby, although he was trained with treats for competition obedience and agility, as well as the breed ring.

And this is the crux of the force vs no force debate, isn't it. The answer it seems, is that it depends on the trainer's skill and the dog at hand. As well as the nature of the reward. Is it a tiny milk bone, or is it the promise of a duck to fetch?

I use the treat/reward training to teach new skills and then reinforce that learned skill when tacking on a new skill.

Like heeling to the line for a mark. I clicker/treat trained my pup to heel and it worked great. Then we tacked on the heel to the holding blind then holding blind to line, steadiness on line til sent for mark. Never seen a dog LOVE getting in the holding blind as much as this pup. She knows that each step in the chain is getting her closer to that ultimate reward of the mark/retrieve. If she fails to do a step, no retrieve. Boring. That's enough for her. BUT, we developed the right habits and expectations VERY EARLY ON.

Clicker training is not just: grab any ole treat and go outside and see if the dog will do what you want, instead of what HE wants. It's a process and technique that has to be followed properly in order to get the right results - just like with ecollar training or any punishment based training. I promise that once a dog knows what the clicker means, and the trainer know what they are doing, the dog will very focused on trying to figure out what you're trying to train him.

As for the debate on whether a dog will purposely disobey a known command, I think it's possible, but I think it's more about the choices presented to the dog and which choice is most rewarding. Is it 1.) humping the female in standing heat right next to him or 2.) Being told to stay at heel and get a click treat while a female in heat is standing next to him?

I have stayed in several hotels with my 3 yr old golden and can easily heel him past the open breakfast area with waffle and bacon smell, children and people saying how cute he is. He was clicker trained to heel and finds it very rewarding to be with me in training mode.

[rmilner]

I still think it comes down to the basic instincts in the dog.
My boy, too, has no problem heeling past breakfast (or any food), in a hotel or anywhere. He will do a down-stay or sit-stay, with me out of sight, and not touch food that's left on the floor right in front of him if he has been told to leave it alone. (He was not clicker trained, though).
But when very strong basic instincts come into play, such as breeding or, believe it or not, prey drive if feathers are involved, all bets are off. You could offer him any treat you can think of, and he would literally spit it out onto the floor. I can't train him with treats at all in field, he wants nothing to do with them if there are birds (or bitches) nearby, although he was trained with treats for competition obedience and agility, as well as the breed ring.

A compulsion trainer has to have a certain level of knowldege and certain level of skills to do a good job and produce a good product.

A positive trainer has to have a certain level of knowledge and certain level of skills to do a good job and produce a good product.

Being a good compulsion trainer does not make one a good positive trainer; being a good positive trainer does not make one a good compulsion trainer.

[Gun_Dog2002]

Nice post, /Paul. I would add that in a clicker training session, the dog does learn what "doesn't work" rather than what's "wrong". And as a consequence to do doing what "doesn't work" their treat or retrieve (reward) gets withheld. So if clicker training to heel: dog gets clicked and treated for walking at heel exactly correctly. If dog wanders ahead a bit, no click and no treat. Human stops to wait for right behavior, Dog learns and comes back to heel to get the human to click/treat.

Even though dog is not taught "Wrong = punishment" dog does learn "what doesn't work = no reward"

Which is great if the dogs only drive in the world is a piece of fake bacon and the soothing sound of a piece of plastic clicking in their ear. I prefer to train high drive bird dogs which much more intense desires than that...

/Paul