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Thread: British Labs / No Force????

  1. #291
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer Henion View Post
    Neither do I, Darrin. Sounds like he knows what he's doing. Didn't hear him mention that he uses much compulsion or aversive escape methodology in his early training, which is what I do shy away from.
    I know its a big statement but it is the single best dog training video out there IMO.

    Watch from about 31:00 min on. Ellis talks about how medium drive dogs that have some drive, but perhaps not enough to totally focus or "do anything for" the reward (retrieve), recieve the brunt of his compulsion training out of neccessity. He goes on to say with self reinforcing behiavors (chasing squirrels etc), non-reinforcement does not work. It only goes away with punishment. He does say he tries to block the behavior as much as possible.

    He also talks about how he experimented with positive only training for a couple of years and the disaster it caused, thus he went back to the use of some aversives/compulsion. Belief it or not, he talks about how dogs need to learn how to turn pressure off. Very interesting stuff that is presented in a easy to understand manner.
    Last edited by dpate; 12-11-2012 at 09:35 PM.

  2. #292
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    Quote Originally Posted by JS View Post
    Same way you teach them to seat on a duck.

    JS
    Exactly!

    WRL

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    Who does not break down criteria when training young pups?

    I go through a fair bit of chicken and cheese rewarding my 5 month old.

    Cannot fault her desire, focus, obedience and ability to learn. She generalises well and training is fun..as it should be.
    Field trial labradors, the wind beneath my wings,

    sometimes poop under my boots.

  4. #294
    Senior Member Mary Lynn Metras's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer Henion View Post
    Darrin, Thanks for posting that Michael Ellis / Leerberg video again! You're right, it's perfect! What a great explanation and a dynamic speaker. The first time you posted it - in a different thread - I watched the first 3 mins and clients walked in and I forgot about it. It is long, but great. Hopefully the people who have questions about "rewards based" training will take 15 minutes to watch it.

    Maybe we can kidnap him and make him create a retriever program.
    Agree Jen very good video with lots of info.
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  5. #295
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    Quote Originally Posted by DarrinGreene View Post
    Not sure why you'd want that with the amount of great retriever programs that are out there Jenn.

    Besides that, as I mentioned, from what I've seen (I don't know the guy), Ellis has no problem with aversive methods of training. He seems really good at early development and setting dogs up so that pressure down the line is minimized though.

    I just like the clarity of his explanations, regardless of topic.
    Yes he is very clear to what he expects of the dogs but fair in that video!
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    Quote Originally Posted by dpate View Post
    I know its a big statement but it is the single best dog training video out there IMO.

    Watch from about 31:00 min on. Ellis talks about how medium drive dogs that have some drive, but perhaps not enough to totally focus or "do anything for" the reward (retrieve), recieve the brunt of his compulsion training out of neccessity. He goes on to say with self reinforcing behiavors (chasing squirrels etc), non-reinforcement does not work. It only goes away with punishment. He does say he tries to block the behavior as much as possible.

    He also talks about how he experimented with positive only training for a couple of years and the disaster it caused, thus he went back to the use of some aversives/compulsion. Belief it or not, he talks about how dogs need to learn how to turn pressure off. Very interesting stuff that is presented in a easy to understand manner.
    AH HA! Someone who watched the whole thing! WTG!

    It's a tough concept for some people but I was once given 10 dogs to train a particular task and a week or so to get it done.

    I ended up training 10 dogs about 4 different ways in order to accomplish the task. Failure was not an option. Some were straight +r, some straight -r and some a combination. All were later collar conditioned to the behavior in a similar manner but getting them to that point was almost 100% individual for each dog, with about half requiring some level of compulsion.

    Had I not been versed in escape/avoidance training along with +r, I would never have been able to reach the goal.
    Darrin Greene

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    Senior Member Mary Lynn Metras's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dpate View Post
    I know its a big statement but it is the single best dog training video out there IMO.

    Watch from about 31:00 min on. Ellis talks about how medium drive dogs that have some drive, but perhaps not enough to totally focus or "do anything for" the reward (retrieve), recieve the brunt of his compulsion training out of neccessity. He goes on to say with self reinforcing behiavors (chasing squirrels etc), non-reinforcement does not work. It only goes away with punishment. He does say he tries to block the behavior as much as possible.

    He also talks about how he experimented with positive only training for a couple of years and the disaster it caused, thus he went back to the use of some aversives/compulsion. Belief it or not, he talks about how dogs need to learn how to turn pressure off. Very interesting stuff that is presented in a easy to understand manner.
    Not quite sure I would go as far as you to say it was the single best video out there. It certainly is good but I would want to see more and how it would work or apply to my attention deficit dog.
    I don't have a medium or a dog that sits by the fireplace. I have a high drive and desire dog who is 1 1/2 yo with no focus. I was impressed though how he talked about getting the dogs attention. I don't like to feed food mongers however which is what my pup is!!
    If you do with hold the reward until he performs the command he may loose focus with that game. Training has to be kept short and varied. He is on his own planet still trying to run the show. But to treat, treat to teach the command and wait until he complies with a food monger??with no focus??.
    He is a very reactive dog and will be paying attention to the food IMHO. And I know he mentions the dog eventually goes from being reactive to an active dog but I think that could be difficult with this pup and problem dogs.
    There are some good things about the video I would apply. Timing of his yes and good response might capture dogs attention. And I assume you don't need to treat with food for his system to work.
    Was not sure I like the idea of when he tells his dog down way out, then lets the dog know he is right, the reward yes and the dog runs in to get the treat? That is not a good application.
    If I whistle sit my dog way out on a blind and he sits promptly and I say yes or good which is what I do b/c it signals to him you were good sitting not to come running in! So I was interested how you would stop that from occurring. I am always thinking how is that going to help me attain my goals with my dog in what ever venue I enter. It has to be applicable and doable, easy and acceptable for my dog.

    IMHO some pups need a little more than treats. No offence to Ellis, he did speak about that firmness on the video. Need to see more on that subject, other problematic behaviors and more info on his methods! Very interesting video, however.
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    There are some good things about the video I would apply. Timing of his yes and good response might capture dogs attention. And I assume you don't need to treat with food for his system to work.
    Was not sure I like the idea of when he tells his dog down way out, then lets the dog know he is right, the reward yes and the dog runs in to get the treat? That is not a good application.
    If I whistle sit my dog way out on a blind and he sits promptly and I say yes or good which is what I do b/c it signals to him you were good sitting not to come running in! So I was interested how you would stop that from occurring. I am always thinking how is that going to help me attain my goals with my dog in what ever venue I enter. It has to be applicable and doable, easy and acceptable for my dog.

    IMHO some pups need a little more than treats. No offence to Ellis, he did speak about that firmness on the video. Need to see more on that subject, other problematic behaviors and more info on his methods! Very interesting video, however.
    I think if you were to get efficient at that technique you would be surprised how well it works. He may start off there teaching down ( I don't know if he does or doesn't) at a distance but it doesn't end there,
    I do the same with P+ and -R I don't make them wait at first but after a few sessions they are doing the long down stay at a distance. remember dogs are contexual,, what you looking for is the slam down not the down stay. Slamming into a down 5 feet away is different than doing it at 100 yards. So a show me what you want phase is helpful.
    I find it is a great application to start with. And I have never watched the video. I did watch his philosophy video though.
    John 5 :30
    I can of my own self do nothing ,as I hear , I judge,,and my judgement is just, because I seek not my own will,,but the will of the father which hath sent me
    John 7:16 -- Jesus answered them and said my doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me.
    mark 16:9 -- So then after the lord had spoken unto them,he was received up in heaven, and sat on the right hand of God
    I Tim. 2:5 --For there is one God and one mediator between God and man ,, the man Christ Jesus

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    Quote Originally Posted by Howard N View Post
    Yeah, RTF has made me forget things and driven me to drink on a few occasions too.
    All these one dog wonders are driving me to drinks...


    /Paul
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  10. #300
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer Henion View Post
    Here are a couple of web sites:
    http://www.clickertraining.com/node/1134

    http://www.video.clickertraining.com/library

    And here are a couple of books:

    Positive Gun Dog Training (you can download this from the net onto your computer)

    Reaching the Animal Mind, by Karen Pryor. More general about the training method, but a really good read.

    Good luck, Jonronomo! It's always good to keep an open mind and figure out what to take from the different methods to fit your style, goals and your dog.

    Jen
    Interesting how that first article talks about watered down non bird tests that focus mostly on the parlor trick aspects of the game vs doing real field work.

    /Paul
    Paul Cantrell
    Black Ice Retrievers
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    Too many dogs to list (By some Bitch)

    https://www.facebook.com/BlackIceRetrievers
    http://gundog2002.blogspot.com/
    "Helping Hunters Train Their Dogs"

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