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Thread: British Labs / No Force????

  1. #321
    Senior Member polmaise's Avatar
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    British Labs/No force
    After more than 30 pages on this thread it would appear that like most things when you get a topic that is either based on supposition or another’s opinion you will get controversy ,such is a forum.
    I took an early interest in this thread for obvious reasons , being as I from Scotland. At the time of my insertion to the thread it was clear that the perception from many that ‘No-force’ related to either clicker’ or positive only training, and that a ‘few’ in the same camp swamped us with testimonials and accolades.
    I therefore ‘tried’ to introduce a bit of ‘British humour’ with pictures and light hearted response.
    Which,In my opinion resulted in the same response you get from UK Gundog forums ?..We ain’t all that different after all!
    I come on this forum to learn from what you guy’s are doing with your dogs. It has already been mentioned that there are two sets of rules which guide us apart, yet we achieve the same goals, whether they are in competition trials and tests, or just hunting/shooting!
    You guy’s are actually pretty lucky! We aren’t allowed to use e-collar, or FF, or caged birds or many of the other tools available to you!? , we have to work with what we’ve got ! under the law and rules before us, for that we rely heavily on the decades of selective breeding for the traits that are best shown for the purpose we strive for, the most important being that of game finding! and line manners , No matter what theatre of gundog work you enter.
    Let me give a few facts about how we train and the type of trainer in the UK, that I can truly state regarding the original post of Brit Labs/No force.
    99% Of all UK Professional handler/trainers do not use ‘clicker’ training
    There has never been a FTCH in the UK that has been trained with ‘positive only’ training.
    There has also never been a FTCH in the UK that has been collar conditioned and FF used as a programme for retrieving.
    So that said?, if the UK /Brit Labs don’t use e-collar or FF ,and also don’t use positive only or clicker?
    Then how the heck , do we get these dogs to do what they do.
    My post/reply is not to promote or advocate what we do ,or condemn what others on your side of the pond do!..Merely to point out the differences that we all work with, and why the same differences in each camp ,whether positive only or CC, or using a Ken Dodd Tickly stick? (Many of you won’t know what that is, but you can Google it)
    I know it’s a long post, for many to read!..I make no apologies, it was necessary to explain what I have read and interpreted on the forum from ‘all you guy’s’!
    Therefore, if you are not interested in some of the things we do in our shooting field without the use of everything You guy’s have at your disposal then you not need see the following home made clips.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DQfo5ZdSCcE
    This is not a test or a trial,but it could be?,because they are asked on a daily shoot to perform the same. And more often with other dogs at their side.
    Over here, on a Shoot day, whether walking up in a line, or driven game there primary function is to retrieve wounded game ‘first’!..to the exclusion of all else.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VanUIPniNhc
    Now there were more than 50 birds shot in that sequence ,with more than 100 shots fired!
    Multiple marking?>
    In our game the dog must remain steady with no collar and no noise, and honour others around it, with the same determination as one who wants to retrieve.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5WMaztF2gaU
    The dog must also be soft of mouth! and take direction on Blinds , with control and direction in the field full of scent and distraction.
    This last clip was more ‘proving a point for many on this side of the pond,on my part ‘, but you get the idea?..so sorry for the comments!
    In all cases the dogs are non slip!
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZPvUQVgzTSE
    Let me confirm, that none of these clips are intended as a promotion to field trailing in the UK! More to show what the dogs in the UK have to do! Whether they trial or not.
    I do hope ,that the next posts on here regarding British Labs, and the next post I see in the UK regarding US retrieving is perhaps seen in a different light?
    I wish you all a very Happy new year.
    One Shooter One Spaniel One Retriever

  2. #322
    Senior Member Swack's Avatar
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    polmaise,

    It's good to see some authentic looks at the jobs UK Labs are asked to do in the field. You make a good point about the differences in points of view between those who hunt vs. those who trial. Often there are differing training goals depending on the venue and even a preference for differences in the dogs, depending on an individual's preference or requirements.

    Whether we are discussing hunting needs vs. FT needs or comparing US dogs to UK dogs I think we can often get bogged down in the differences instead of finding common ground. Regardless of the venue or the continent there is no one style of retriever that will fit everyone's needs. Rather than getting into the "My ______ (insert: Style of Lab, Way of Training, etc.) is better than yours!", which is often where these discussions end up, we should acknowledge the differences and try to understand and appreciate why there are differences.

    There is no doubt that forums are imperfect places to exchange ideas with so many differences of opinions (including those whose opinions are based on misinformation and biases). However, in spite of the shortcomings it is the best place I can think of to exchange ideas and information. Your videoes from Scotland may be the closest I get to seeing how you folks across the pond do things and I appreciate you sharing them with us. I hope you continue to contribute your views and experiences from Scotland to help broaden the knowledge-base on RTF.

    Cheers and Happy New Year to you as well!

    Swack
    Jeff Swackhamer

  3. #323
    Senior Member polmaise's Avatar
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    It should be a 'New Year' resolution Jeff.
    Thanks for the comments mate!
    .....................
    I wish I had better clips than Paul French ,but I don't..and I wish I had better dogs than is seen on them.
    I do know this however!.....We all appear to have the best! No matter how we achieve it!...
    .......
    Happy new year to you and yours also, as Here at this time is just about 'Party Time'!..and I may be missing for a few days!
    One Shooter One Spaniel One Retriever

  4. #324
    Senior Member Jennifer Henion's Avatar
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    Now that we have that settled, can we resolve the Golden Vs Lab debate?

  5. #325
    Senior Member duk4me's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer Henion View Post
    Now that we have that settled, can we resolve the Golden Vs Lab debate?
    Poor Jennifer you are a glutton for punishment arent' you.
    I have learned I need these dogs much more than they need me. Tim Bockmon

  6. #326
    Senior Member polmaise's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer Henion View Post
    Now that we have that settled, can we resolve the Golden Vs Lab debate?
    Maybe that be better debated on your own thread?for resolvent of breed specific,rather than achievement or ability of breed,or procedure/training with any of them.
    Without being specific,or detrimental to either US or UK Goldens !
    Happy New Year To ALL! including the Goldens!..Hell! Kirsty Cousins and Louis would have my 'Gut's for garter's' if I didn't mention them
    One Shooter One Spaniel One Retriever

  7. #327
    Senior Member Jennifer Henion's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by duk4me View Post
    Poor Jennifer you are a glutton for punishment arent' you.

    Just havin' a bit o fun...

    Bandana wearer regards -

  8. #328
    Senior Member crackerd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by polmaise View Post
    Happy new year to you and yours also, as Here at this time is just about 'Party Time'!..and I may be missing for a few days!
    Or at least til Bobby Burns Night - which reminds me, do Scottish Labs deliver haggis? I didn't say deliver to hand, just deliver, being aware that you sent a dog across a few weeks ago and wanting to know if you can pass off a couple of haggi as dummies getting them through customs to accompany the next dog you ship over. And you rotter - Ken Dodd! Who will you cite next for "British training," Frankie Howerd?

    MG

  9. #329
    Administrator Chris Atkinson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by polmaise View Post
    Maybe that be better debated on your own thread?for resolvent of breed specific,rather than achievement or ability of breed,or procedure/training with any of them.
    Without being specific,or detrimental to either US or UK Goldens !
    Happy New Year To ALL! including the Goldens!..Hell! Kirsty Cousins and Louis would have my 'Gut's for garter's' if I didn't mention them
    Polmaise, Several years ago I came to the Irish National Countrysports Fair at Moira in Northern Ireland and got to spend some time with the Scottish team. There was a guy there whose first name was "Gordon". He was the team captain.

    On more than one occasion I saw him order a cocktail and it was always the same. Bacardi with Coke and "NO FRUIT!".

    Do you know him?

    He and his group were fun to be around.

    i had many a discussion that week about the Lardy program versus the Brit program. When we really got down to it, the essentials were not that different. My takeaway was that those who think that Brits accomplish what they do with just hugs, pats and cookies are gravely mistaken.

    I know one English trainer who told me he keeps a cut fanbelt in his training bag. The purpose is for what I reference as "Indirect pressure with poor timing." He uses it to go out and tag a dog on the flanks for refusals.

    Chris

  10. #330
    Senior Member Jennifer Henion's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris Atkinson View Post
    Polmaise, Several years ago I came to the Irish National Countrysports Fair at Moira in Northern Ireland and got to spend some time with the Scottish team. There was a guy there whose first name was "Gordon". He was the team captain.

    On more than one occasion I saw him order a cocktail and it was always the same. Bacardi with Coke and "NO FRUIT!".

    Do you know him?

    He and his group were fun to be around.

    i had many a discussion that week about the Lardy program versus the Brit program. When we really got down to it, the essentials were not that different. My takeaway was that those who think that Brits accomplish what they do with just hugs, pats and cookies are gravely mistaken.

    I know one English trainer who told me he keeps a cut fanbelt in his training bag. The purpose is for what I reference as "Indirect pressure with poor timing." He uses it to go out and tag a dog on the flanks for refusals.

    Chris
    Jeez Chris! We were ending this thread on such a good note... Of course, this does seem to be the thread doesn't die

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