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Thread: British Labs / No Force????

  1. #81
    Senior Member Becky Mills's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Bora View Post
    Over?
    Tennessee is a foreign country?
    Ken, TN is a llooooonnnnnggggg over from CA. As opposed to a back.
    Don't bother to just be better than your contemporaries or predecessors. Try to be better than yourself.
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  2. #82
    Senior Member Erik Vigeland's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gun_Dog2002 View Post
    British labs make great pets, companion dogs, floor cleaners, cab labs, etc. I've only seen a couple I'd ever want to hunt with...just my preference in dogs...

    /Paul

    Why? Just curious...
    Thanks,

    Erik
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  3. #83
    Senior Member Dave Flint's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mitty View Post
    I think you hit the nail on the head when with the word "anyone."

    The pom poms over the R+ stuff and clickers is coming mostly from RTF newbs about newbs. It just seems naive to me. And at what point does clicker training quit being new? Here I am being naive, I just assumed that everyone taught basic stuff using marker training. Again, color me naive, but my lab from FT lines delivered to hand (not sure what this means though), was tractable and bidable...I assume most are. The people I train with rarely press the buttons on their ecollars.

    I am also highly skeptical that anyone can develop a "new" training program to build a competitive field trial retrievers by training a single dog or patting each other on the back on the internet for trying. The successful trainers who have developed programs for the masses have experience training many dogs to be competitive in all age stakes. Should the lone trainer be so lucky and talented to produce a FC using the "new" method we will need to try it on several more retrievers to see if it generalizable, so we are talking about not knowing the results for many years.

    What we need is someone who already knows what the end product is supposed to look like doing the experiments. Otherwise it is like my husband in the kitchen, wondering why the first cake he ever baked didn't turn out after he undermixed the batter.
    Great points. I am bemused when I hear Operant Conditioning described as “new” & “innovative”.
    Marcus Terentius Varro (116 BC – 27 BC), also known as Varro Reatinus, wrote about sheepdogs, “Whoever wishes to be followed by a dog should throw him a cooked frog.'"
    "The bird hunter watches only the dog, and always knows where the dog is, whether or not visible at the moment. The dog’ nose is the bird hunters eye. Many hunters who carry a shotgun in season have never learned to watch the dog, or interpret his reaction to scent."
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  4. #84

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    Quote Originally Posted by mitty View Post
    I think you hit the nail on the head when with the word "anyone."

    The pom poms over the R+ stuff and clickers is coming mostly from RTF newbs about newbs. It just seems naive to me. And at what point does clicker training quit being new? Here I am being naive, I just assumed that everyone taught basic stuff using marker training. Again, color me naive, but my lab from FT lines delivered to hand (not sure what this means though), was tractable and bidable...I assume most are. The people I train with rarely press the buttons on their ecollars.

    I am also highly skeptical that anyone can develop a "new" training program to build a competitive field trial retrievers by training a single dog or patting each other on the back on the internet for trying. The successful trainers who have developed programs for the masses have experience training many dogs to be competitive in all age stakes. Should the lone trainer be so lucky and talented to produce a FC using the "new" method we will need to try it on several more retrievers to see if it generalizable, so we are talking about not knowing the results for many years.

    What we need is someone who already knows what the end product is supposed to look like doing the experiments. Otherwise it is like my husband in the kitchen, wondering why the first cake he ever baked didn't turn out after he undermixed the batter.
    I agree with most of what you say except the part about assuming everyone teaches basic stuff using marker training. Can you give a specific example of where Hillmann or Lardy uses a marker in their basics program? I have their DVDs and Lardy's articles, and I've not seen one word about markers. Marking yes, markers no. I will say that in Hillmann's fetch DVD, he says "good" at the moment the dog gets the bumper in its mouth. That could be construed as a marker, if he's properly conditioned it as a marker beforehand. However, in his soft collar DVD, he says something to the effect that you pop a bit of food in the dog's mouth and say "good" while it's eating it. That's not how you condition a marker. The marker comes first, then the food. It's classical conditioning. The marker has to precede the reinforcement. If you say "good" after you feed the dog, that's backwards conditioning, and there's plenty of published research that shows that backwards conditioning doesn't work.

    You're right that marker training isn't new, when all dog sports are considered, but the people that employ it seem to be in the minority in the retriever training community. At least that's been my experience. There's also a big difference between just using a marker and using a marker really effectively. Also, even if you use a marker, it's hardly the only tool in the toolbox...at least in mine. Markers are great tools for some behaviors at some points in the training of those behaviors. I love using markers with young pups because it clarifies communication and accelerates learning. But once the basics are in place, I find little use for markers unless it's teaching stupid pet tricks to give my pups a mental workout during the long nights of winter. We are all easily amused...

  5. #85
    Senior Member Evan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mitty View Post
    I think you hit the nail on the head when with the word "anyone."

    The people I train with rarely press the buttons on their ecollars.
    You make a great point, one too often missed in these all too frequent discussions. After Basics and a bit of transition many of us back way off e-collar usage. I think many also falsely assume that so-called "collar trainers" use them on routinely high settings. It still seems there are more false notions about them than correct ones.

    Evan
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  6. #86
    Senior Member RetrieversONLINE's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mitty View Post
    The pom poms over the R+ stuff and clickers is coming mostly from RTF newbs about newbs. It just seems naive to me. And at what point does clicker training quit being new? Here I am being naive, I just assumed that everyone taught basic stuff using marker training. Again, color me naive, but my lab from FT lines delivered to hand (not sure what this means though), was tractable and bidable...I assume most are. The people I train with rarely press the buttons on their ecollars.
    I am also highly skeptical that anyone can develop a "new" training program to build a competitive field trial retrievers by training a single dog or patting each other on the back on the internet for trying.
    The successful trainers who have developed programs for the masses have experience training many dogs to be competitive in all age stakes. Should the lone trainer be so lucky and talented to produce a FC using the "new" method we will need to try it on several more retrievers to see if it generalizable, so we are talking about not knowing the results for many years.

    What we need is someone who already knows what the end product is supposed to look like doing the experiments.
    Otherwise it is like my husband in the kitchen, wondering why the first cake he ever baked didn't turn out after he undermixed the batter.

    Nice Post!!

    Some pretty perceptive statements ( and you call yourself a "newbie"! ).

    I especially like the sentences I under-lined above.

    Cheers,
    Dennis

  7. #87
    Senior Member Keith Stroyan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Flint View Post
    “Whoever wishes to be followed by a dog should throw him a cooked frog.'"
    Oh great. Bumpers, stickmen, bumper boys, wingers, eCollars, dog boxes, land, clickers. Now I have to get frogs and cook them? Where do I buy them this time of year...

  8. #88
    Senior Member Mary Lynn Metras's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Becky Mills View Post
    Ken, TN is a llooooonnnnnggggg over from CA. As opposed to a back.
    Both are a long ways from me but I meant good for her for checking things out over in Tennessee
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  9. #89
    Senior Member firehouselabs's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Keith Stroyan View Post
    Oh great. Bumpers, stickmen, bumper boys, wingers, eCollars, dog boxes, land, clickers. Now I have to get frogs and cook them? Where do I buy them this time of year...

    Tennessee?
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  10. #90
    Senior Member KNorman's Avatar
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    If you've been around long enough, you will have seen countless individuals (newbs) come onto these forums and proclaim they're going to do it "their way" inspite of advice from the old-timers who have already been there / done that.

    If someone wants to beat their head against the wall while telling the old-timers they're going to build a better moustrap, it makes no difference to me.

    Make no mistake, I applaud the effort...but lots of us have tried that already and watched a hundred others try, so hopefully the skepticism can be understood.
    Last edited by KNorman; 12-06-2012 at 01:42 PM.

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