Training Herding Dogs

[Glenda Brown]

Thanks for all the replies. Very interesting reading. I have a book written by a Scot (my family is Scottish) about it and need to go back and reread it. The little I have seen of herding is fascinating. I can understand why they would not want to do anything to produce good herders if it were done at the risk of dimming down the natural instincts. The comment that we train retrievers to do things they wouldn't naturally (ie take water when land is much quicker, etc.) do versus the herding dogs that are trained to bring out innate traits is an excellent observation. Like Ed said, I would think having them trained for an e-collar when working at great distances would be something the herding owners would think about (and maybe some do behind closed doors!)

I really appreciate all of you answering this in response to the question asked. It is really enjoyable to read/hear about training methods used in various breeds of dogs to bring out the qualities desired in order to fulfill the reason for a breed initially being developed.

Glenda

[mjh345]

Becky Edwards might be a good source also

[zoomngoldens]

I did some herding with my BC and my trainer was a great shot with herding sticks (longer version of a heeling stick). He would carry several and when she would work too close he would throw one in front of her to push her back. Use of the sticks, paddles, plastic rakes seem to be the norm in herding. I did collar condition a friends BC because he wouldn't call off the sheep when he was working them. I conditioned him on lie down and here and it really helped her control him on his herding. He quit busting in on the sheep.

[Miriam Wade]

I asked a border collie owner about ecollar use a few years ago. She told me a lot of BC people are passionately against using an e-collar because they believe inherited biddability is such a key defining breed characteristic. You can teach the dog what you want close up in a pen, but a BC is smart enough to know when they're out of reach of the herding stick. Many owners feel that if you have to use an ecollar to get control at a distance, that BC should never be bred.

Hi Glenda-

I spoke with someone locally with working Border Collies and they echoed the sentiment quoted. They truly believe that, while some training is involved, instint is a necessity. It's why the Border Collie folks fought tooth and nail that the breed would not be AKC recognized. Genotype vs Phenotype. Their biggest fears will likely be realized that the Border Collie will become the next Lab, Golden, Springer, i.e just another pretty face with no clue what they were bred for. Head type, coat, markings, etc at the expense of intelligence and doing what they were bred to do.

That said, a true working Border Collie working a herd gives you goosebumps!!

M

[gdgnyc]

I know it is a little offbeat to ask about herding dogs on a retriever forum, but there is a tie-in. Was talking to someone about training with e-collars on dogs that have been conditioned to them. We both know of persons who have used them successfully in the field, in obedience training as well as in agility training---re agility, usually away from most groups as they feel agility should be positive only. This person has an agility dog that was out of control, stressed readily, etc. With proper collar conditioning and using it correctly, the dog started accepting the responsibility for its own actions, has boundaries, and has had a complete turn-around and has become very successful as well as a dog that is now delightful to be around because of its improved behavior.

She mentioned that herding dog people do not use e-collars. I know that traditionally, for umpteen generations, they have bred those dogs for one purpose, herding, and do not breed those without the proper attitude and talent. Do any of you know how they correct a herding dog that should go out of control; might disregard directions; or may start to bite the sheep? Do they just remove them from use as a herding dog? Have any of you heard of someone training herding dogs with the use of an e-collar?

Outside the parameters here, but am interested in straight forward answers. This is not a question as to whether anyone in any venue should or should not use an e-collar. It is about do they ever use them with herding dogs, and if not, what form of corrections would they use?

Thanks.

Glenda

A herding demonstration at a recent event gave me the opportunity to talk to the handler. She said that she did not use the ecollar. I think she might have said that it is not commonly used although she did say that someone in her group uses one, her dog was started late, not trained from a youngster. I was impressed with the demo. This handler brought some sheep with her for her demo. It was pretty cool.

[gdgnyc]

lem

That is exactly what the handler told me. She would start in a small ,pen and go through increasingly lager pens.

[GG]

Glenda; many years ago i attended a herding competition and witnessed quite a few of the dogs fall apart in certain skills; mainly separating the sheep. i thought to myself, a little collar work would help. So, i asked one of the professional trainers, what kind of discipline he used on the dogs he trained. He answered; "grab them by both sides of the neck, lift them up and look them in the eye and shake once or twice; that's good enough for a month". i thought he was stroking me, but as i learned later, that's pretty much it for discipline.
GG

[Schmemdog]

What is the functional distinction between a pole and an ecollar, aside from distance? They work on the same principle as far as I can tell. Personally, I know that my collar applied to the same setting is going to apply the same stimulus every time; not sure I can say that with a pole. I get that part of it is the cue of the herder moving the pole, but you could just as easily add a physical cue to a correction with the collar, holding your hand out before nicking, for example.

Just another aside, training a young horse ground work is similar-you start by cuing with the popper, then fade until a hand motion can get a gait change, direction change or woah. Amazing that herding dogs can respond to those cues going full speed amidst livestock.

Just curious. I have am enormous amount of respect for the breeding, training and tradition involved in working with herding dogs. Goosebumps is right.

[Aussie]

So many decisions have to be made by the dog.

[tripsteer1]

funny you bring this up. I have a queensland/border collie mix that I rescued off the indian reservation. he is about 8 months old.I just started working cattle around the place and in the roping pen. In the past we always have a young pup work with an older dog,but all I have is a lab so he is not much help, however my herding pup will do some 50-75yd.single marks pretty well .Anyway I was having some OB problems with him so I thought why not try the TT on him. I am very pleased with the results,I used the same process of conditioning him as I did with the lab,took my time and only use it to enforce what he already knows if he gets bull headed. To be clear I am not a herding dog trainer but so far the collar has been quite effective,saves me alot of running,