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Thread: So what would you do? FF v Non FF

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    Senior Member Colonel Blimp's Avatar
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    Default So what would you do? FF v Non FF

    This is a FF v Non FF question of a sort, but I hope a bit more reflective than some.

    First I like to get some agreed definitions as to just what is being discussed, and by the way drop the US versus UK tabs, they don't really mean anything and only serve to irritate and annoy.

    So OK lets define Force Fetch; not what it supposedly achieves, but what it actually is. Sequential, structured training? No, can't be that, structure isn't exclusive. Use of the e-collar? No, can't be that you can Force Fetch without it via ear pinch and so on. I submit that the use of the phrase is often pretty sloppy and includes in the assumed definition both structured training and the collar which is sort of fair enough, but often assumes the structural elements are exclusive.

    So, by interpolation non FF training omits the collar and the ear pinch thing, and may or may not contain a fixed structure. Like many such, I have a structure very clearly in my mind but vary it's application, intensity and timing to suit the particular dog's needs. I rely on a lot of positive reinforcement, acute observation of the dog (as best as I can manage anyway, still a work in progress) and virtually no punishment. I don't believe dogs deliberately ignore commands that have been properly taught and trained.

    The results from the two systems are just exactly what you'd expect; variable, with the most competent trainers producing the best results. Unlike some I don't see the two in competition with each other; were I to train for US Trials I'd use the collar because that's what you need to punish infractions of line at distance, but I'd still teach the basics with clicker because I know it works more quickly and with greater precision than anything else.

    Were you guys to train for our Field Trials you'd have to amend your training in several ways not all ofwhich are best addressed by a collar.

    As a final shot I'd like to propose a thought experiment to my “FF” chums in N America. Imagine you live in a country where the collar is unlawful, but there is a wealth of non FF knowledge that's growing every day. The raw material (ie the dogs) available is of high quality and well suited to your needs. Additionally you've had some bloody cruel luck with your dogs this season and need to have three Pups (and maybe even a trained dog as a gap filler) in the kennels PDQ. That's right where I am.

    What would you do?

    Eug
    Last edited by Colonel Blimp; 12-05-2012 at 04:17 PM.
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    Senior Member John Robinson's Avatar
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    Eug, I really respect you, consider you a thoughtfull gentelman and would love to watch you and your dogs run an English field trail, but I have no idea what your question is. I guess if I was in your shoes I would train dogs the way I have in the past and look around for way to tweak my training program and make it even better.

    John

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    Senior Member Evan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Colonel Blimp View Post
    This is a FF v Non FF question of a sort, but I hope a bit more reflective than some.

    So OK lets define Force Fetch; not what it supposedly achieves, but what it actually is. Sequential, structured training? No, can't be that, structure isn't exclusive. Use of the e-collar? No, can't be that you can Force Fetch without it via ear pinch and so on. I submit that the use of the phrase is often pretty sloppy and includes in the assumed definition both structured training and the collar which is sort of fair enough, but often assumes the structural elements are exclusive.
    You're a good man, Eugene. Too good for a set up question like this. You've conditioned it so as to be like bad science. You know; the scientist sets out - not to discover new evidence, but rather simply to prove something he already believes. And he does it by so stacking the data that it can only prove him right. "Presto! I knew it all along!"
    Quote Originally Posted by Colonel Blimp View Post
    So, by interpolation non FF training omits the collar and the ear pinch thing, and may or may not contain a fixed structure.

    Eug
    Why would a dog that was not being force fetched automatically 'omit the collar', even if ear pinch won't be used? You can do it, Eug. How about starting over and just ask the question that's really on your mind?

    Evan
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    Senior Member badbullgator's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Colonel Blimp View Post
    This is a FF v Non FF question of a sort, but I hope a bit more reflective than some.

    First I like to get some agreed definitions as to just what is being discussed, and by the way drop the US versus UK tabs, they don't really mean anything and only serve to irritate and annoy.

    So OK lets define Force Fetch; not what it supposedly achieves, but what it actually is. Sequential, structured training? No, can't be that, structure isn't exclusive. Use of the e-collar? No, can't be that you can Force Fetch without it via ear pinch and so on. I submit that the use of the phrase is often pretty sloppy and includes in the assumed definition both structured training and the collar which is sort of fair enough, but often assumes the structural elements are exclusive.

    So, by interpolation non FF training omits the collar and the ear pinch thing, and may or may not contain a fixed structure. Like many such, I have a structure very clearly in my mind but vary it's application, intensity and timing to suit the particular dog's needs. I rely on a lot of positive reinforcement, acute observation of the dog (as best as I can manage anyway, still a work in progress) and virtually no punishment. I don't believe dogs deliberately ignore commands that have been properly taught and trained.

    The results from the two systems are just exactly what you'd expect; variable, with the most competent trainers producing the best results. Unlike some I don't see the two in competition with each other; were I to train for US Trials I'd use the collar because that's what you need to punish infractions of line at distance, but I'd still teach the basics with clicker because I know it works more quickly and with greater precision than anything else.

    Were you guys to train for our Field Trials you'd have to amend your training in several ways not all ofwhich are best addressed by a collar.

    As a final shot I'd like to propose a thought experiment to my “FF” chums in N America. Imagine you live in a country where the collar is unlawful, but there is a wealth of non FF knowledge that's growing every day. The raw material (ie the dogs) available is of high quality and well suited to your needs. Additionally you've had some bloody cruel luck with your dogs this season and need to have three Pups (and maybe even a trained dog as a gap filler) in the kennels PDQ. That's right where I am.

    What would you do?

    Eug
    If you can't train a dog without a collar and ff you can't really train a dog with them. Training is far more than the tools you use.
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    Senior Member Colonel Blimp's Avatar
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    John,

    The question is if you don't have access to an ecollar, or at least lawfully, how would you train? Go back to the old US way with rat shot, cattle prods, and all the other horrors I read about, or get better at training than that nonsense. And I think you answered it very well!

    As to your kindly expressed opinion of me, it's just a confirmation that you can fool all of the people some of the time!

    Evan there's no intellectual gymnastics or naughtiness involved, I see it just as I expressed it. I don't see how a non FF program includes collar use, but your view differs. Quel horreur, we disagree!

    Eug
    Last edited by Colonel Blimp; 12-05-2012 at 05:03 PM.
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    Senior Member DarrinGreene's Avatar
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    Buy six dogs, start training and pray a lot.

    And Eug, I don't see using negative re-enforcement with e-collar or otherwise as a patch or short cut used by people who have no business calling themselves dog trainers. I further don't see training without -r as "getting better". Rather, I see the thoughtful, fair and humane application of both +r and -r as the real art of an accomplished trainer.

    Handicapping oneself by omitting a valid re-enforcement strategy is paramount to playing football on one leg. It would be a hell of an accomplishment but more or less a novelty vs. a mainstream strategy.

    It's just not going to work on the majority of dogs and I suspect that despite the e-collar being unlawful, there is plenty of +p and -r going around the UK in one form or another. I don't know that as a fact but I would bet it's there.
    Last edited by DarrinGreene; 12-05-2012 at 05:11 PM.
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    Senior Member Mary Lynn Metras's Avatar
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    Train without the collar. Start as pups and teach hold, fetch and release the way Lori Jolly does it on her Etraining program. Lots of praise! No force!
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    Quote Originally Posted by Colonel Blimp View Post

    As a final shot I'd like to propose a thought experiment to my “FF” chums in N America. Imagine you live in a country where the collar is unlawful, but there is a wealth of non FF knowledge that's growing every day. The raw material (ie the dogs) available is of high quality and well suited to your needs. Additionally you've had some bloody cruel luck with your dogs this season and need to have three Pups (and maybe even a trained dog as a gap filler) in the kennels PDQ. That's right where I am.

    What would you do?

    Eug
    If I lived in a country where the collar was unlawful, I would make one myself, train my dog with it and let everyone think I did by following the law. May even try to make money on my unlawful approach. Wait a minute, maybe that's already happening?

    Realistically though, the rate of wash out or culling of the dogs would be much greater in the scenario presented. Maybe that's why you make 3 pups available. It may take lots of pups from great bloodlines to find the one that will make it.

    From what I see around here, almost everyone thinks their dog is the next AA Field Champion and even if they are not, there are a lot of great tools to help them to reach that goal without putting their pup out to pasture.
    Last edited by RetrieverNation; 12-05-2012 at 05:42 PM.

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    Senior Member BonMallari's Avatar
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    To answer the original Q: my guess is that half the dog world would be lost and probably would not know where to start....the good trainers would still be the good trainers because they would learn to re invent themselves and find ways to solve their problems...

    and to answer Eug's assertion about going back to cattle prods,rat shot and similar tools...no current trainer worth his/her salt would use those unless they were absolute idiots and ready to face the wrath of the dog world..Luckily those tools went the same way as the archaic weapons of the Spanish Inquisition
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    Senior Member Evan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Colonel Blimp View Post
    John,

    The question is if you don't have access to an ecollar, or at least lawfully, how would you train? Go back to the old US way with rat shot, cattle prods, and all the other horrors I read about, or get better at training than that nonsense. And I think you answered it very well!
    Eug,

    I'm not John, but I get your question. And if it were me, and I were to be placed in that spot, would still train dogs, but not compete. I no longer do anyway, but i would not go back to stock prods, shotgunning, bird shot, etc. I simply would not go back. Winning was fun, but no longer that important.
    Quote Originally Posted by Colonel Blimp View Post
    As to your kindly expressed opinion of me, it's just a confirmation that you can fool all of the people some of the time!
    Well, you've got me fooled my friend. I'm convinced you're a good chap!
    Quote Originally Posted by Colonel Blimp View Post
    Evan there's no intellectual gymnastics or naughtiness involved, I see it just as I expressed it. I don't see how a non FF program includes collar use, but your view differs. Quel horreur, we disagree!

    Eug
    i don't know if this addresses your question, or not. But I, and many others here in the states e-collar condition to many more commands than just "Fetch". If I brought up a pup with no intent to FF, I would still e-collar condition him to all standard commands.

    Evan
    "Prepare your dog in such a manner that the work he is normally called upon to do under-whelms him, not overwhelms him." ~ Evan Graham

    “People who say it cannot be done should not interrupt those who are doing it.”

    ― George Bernard Shaw


    The Smartwork System for Retriever Training (link)
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