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Thread: So what would you do? FF v Non FF

  1. #11
    Senior Member Howard N's Avatar
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    Eug, if I was in your shoes needing a trained dog and 3 up and comers, I'd buy a good trained dog as soon as one was available, buy an up and comer started dog, and buy an 8 week old puppy from the best breeding I could find. After 6 months of training, I'd buy another puppy from the best breeding I could find.

    It's been fun spending your money.

    Also, I'd train the dogs the way I knew how to train as that is what I know is successful with me at the controls.
    Howard Niemi

    You really gotta be careful about how high a pedestal you put your method, your accomplishments, your dog on. There's usually someone who's done more, somewhere. And they may have used a different method than you did! Chris Atkinson 2013

    get your dog out and TRAIN! caryalsobrook 2013

  2. #12
    Senior Member Hunt'EmUp's Avatar
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    With-out a collar, I'd probably learn how to run pretty fast and swim, so I could get close enough that harsh words and scoldings made a difference. Wait I did that for a couple of years, can it be done? Yes and with the same results however, Not fun with a head strong testing bitch when she's 100-300 yards away. Thus for those who have no choice to use an e-collar an yet continue on with the more laborious training process you have my respect. For those who simply choose not to use a really nice tool, I consider you a little strange but to each there own .

    On the dogs you need PDQ, I'd probably find a started dog I could at least work with first, and be actively searching and waiting for the correct breeding for the other 3, an e-collar can solve a lot of issues, but when you have to train manually better to have a very tractable pup to start, it can save the legs and head .
    Last edited by Hunt'EmUp; 12-05-2012 at 05:35 PM.
    "They's Just DAWGS"
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  3. #13
    Senior Member Dave Flint's Avatar
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    I would clicker train the basic obedience and force fetch on the table using the ear pinch. I believe that the clicker training helps build the correct relationship between the puppy and me and I believe the force fetch process helps build the correct relationship between us as he gets older.

    Of course you can train a dog w/out ever doing force fetch. Like Eug, I also train & trial Springer Spaniels. Force fetch in the spaniel world is typically only used as a last resort to try to correct/mask a problem & yet most are extremely reliable retrievers.

    It is my opinion however, that the process of restraining the dog and teaching him that he canít avoid, escape or fight his way out of compliance is a very useful exercise.
    "The bird hunter watches only the dog, and always knows where the dog is, whether or not visible at the moment. The dogí nose is the bird hunters eye. Many hunters who carry a shotgun in season have never learned to watch the dog, or interpret his reaction to scent."
    Aldo Leopold, Round River

  4. #14
    Senior Member PalouseDogs's Avatar
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    It's practically an axiom of competitive obedience that there are many different ways to train the same exercise. Certainly, it's true for the several retrieve exercises in obedience.

    Very few obedience trainers in the US use ecollars, and then usually only for a reliable recall outside of the ring. An ear pinch is common, but so is clicker training and training sans clicker but with treats and praise. In obedience, you see all breeds of dogs, few of them natural retrievers. Most of them can be persuaded to retrieve a wooden dumbbell and a glove without too much of a battle. The AKC Utility scent discrimination exercise requires retrieving a metal article. My golden girl will happily pick up crushed aluminum cans and bundles of keys (unasked). It's usually a tad more difficult (like a few orders of magnitude) to get an Afghan Hound or a Chow to pick up a metal object.

    So, to answer your question (which I suspect is rhetorical, since I'm pretty sure you already have a plan in mind), I suppose I'd look at the many other techniques out there.
    Kelly Cassidy (person)

    HR Maple Cassidy CDX JH RE (golden retriever)
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    plus whacked-out weird Burka (elderly mix-breed rescue girl)

  5. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Colonel Blimp View Post
    John,

    The question is if you don't have access to an ecollar, or at least lawfully, how would you train?
    Very simple.......I would be ashamed I lived in a country that felt it was necessary to tell me how and what tools I could use to train a dog that legally was owned by me. I would probably consider leaving.
    "Force fetch isn't about retrieving as much as it is conditioning a dog to handle pressure, in a very controlled environment. It's about putting a dog in the position of having to figure out how to turn off pressure by finding the correct response. This translates into numerous areas in training." Sharon Potter.

  6. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dman View Post
    Very simple.......I would be ashamed I lived in a country that felt it was necessary to tell me how and what tools I could use to train a dog that legally was owned by me. I would probably consider leaving.
    BUT...Haven't you heard ...animals have rights too and lawyers can sue on their behalf....Where are you going to move too now..? Steve S

  7. #17
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    Eug, have you done any research into Michael Elis's dog training videos? He uses a reward based method for teaching all sorts of dogs.. Steve S

  8. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by steve schreiner View Post
    BUT...Haven't you heard ...animals have rights too and lawyers can sue on their behalf....Where are you going to move too now..? Steve S
    So you are willing to accept that?

    Absolutely no where in the Constitution does it say that animals have any "rights". The constitution used to be and was intended to be the law of the land. However, it has changed drastically since lawyers and judges feel it is their duty to MAKE laws without regard to the peoples wishes.

    You do what you want, and I'll do what I want. We'll each suffer the conseqences one way or another.
    Last edited by Dman; 12-05-2012 at 11:23 PM.
    "Force fetch isn't about retrieving as much as it is conditioning a dog to handle pressure, in a very controlled environment. It's about putting a dog in the position of having to figure out how to turn off pressure by finding the correct response. This translates into numerous areas in training." Sharon Potter.

  9. #19
    Senior Member Colonel Blimp's Avatar
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    Force fetch in the spaniel world is typically only used as a last resort to try to correct/mask a problem & yet most are extremely reliable retrievers.
    An interesting comment from Dave Flint.

    It's often forgotten that Springers (and by default Cockers) were never bred to retrieve, for a zillion generations they hunted up and flushed game either for the net or a bird of prey. Only with the coming of the breech loading gun did their handlers see a need to retrieve. Some can be very sticky at first; I've remediated one via clicker and one with a particularly clumsy effort at FF. We got there in the end but it was a tribute to the dogs rather than the trainer! They seem to come into retrieving in a matter of time rather than anything else; I don't think I made a whole ruck of difference.

    Eug
    Thank you, very kind, Mine's a pint.

  10. #20
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    Know I'm not the sharpest knife in the drawer, but I'd ask myself a question..If you could Collar Train would ya' do it? Do you have to in the UK?

    Think the only thing that might go beyond the capabilities of pushing a dog past a poison bird, err, crisper handling would be a good marking dog. And if I had to choose between the two,..-----> give me a good marking dog.

    FF' and Collar training aint' gonna' put any "retrieving desires" in a dog. Think the breeding and the "molding" that takes place from the time a pup gets in your hands makes a HUGE difference in success later on in it's retrieving life. Don't get me wrong,.fully understand the attributes that FF brings to the table, but if it's unlawful to do it, I'd make Operant Conditioning my best friend.
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