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Thread: So what would you do? FF v Non FF

  1. #31
    Senior Member Waterdogs's Avatar
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    The first pro that I worked for trained with little use of the collar. So I guess i would train like we did when I worked for him. He had a truck load of MH but with the way test are now days I am not sure how his dogs would do. I am thankful I worked for such a pro because it has allowed me to train many dogs that would be washed out. So I guess I see it both ways. Their are some very great trainers that have washed alot of nice dogs because they did not fit saids program. Adapt and train. Now if I lived in a Country that didn't allow me to train and use the collar I would be looking for a different place to hang my hat.
    Faith consists in believing when it is beyond the power of reason to believe.

  2. #32
    Senior Member Colonel Blimp's Avatar
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    Now if I lived in a Country that didn't allow me to train and use the collar I would be looking for a different place to hang my hat.
    Others might feel the same about countries that don't allow you to hunt with an eight bore, four bore, or punt gun, or impose arbitrary bag limits and enforce a lottery to shoot deer. Were we all to move hoping to avoid unwelcome legislation, there would be a rather odd looking sub-chapter of RTF bobbing about in Mid Atlantic!

    Eug
    Last edited by Colonel Blimp; 12-07-2012 at 06:17 AM.
    Thank you, very kind, Mine's a pint.

  3. #33
    Senior Member gdgnyc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Colonel Blimp View Post
    This is a FF v Non FF question of a sort, but I hope a bit more reflective than some.

    First I like to get some agreed definitions as to just what is being discussed, and by the way drop the US versus UK tabs, they don't really mean anything and only serve to irritate and annoy.

    So OK lets define Force Fetch; not what it supposedly achieves, but what it actually is. Sequential, structured training? No, can't be that, structure isn't exclusive. Use of the e-collar? No, can't be that you can Force Fetch without it via ear pinch and so on. I submit that the use of the phrase is often pretty sloppy and includes in the assumed definition both structured training and the collar which is sort of fair enough, but often assumes the structural elements are exclusive.

    So, by interpolation non FF training omits the collar and the ear pinch thing, and may or may not contain a fixed structure. Like many such, I have a structure very clearly in my mind but vary it's application, intensity and timing to suit the particular dog's needs. I rely on a lot of positive reinforcement, acute observation of the dog (as best as I can manage anyway, still a work in progress) and virtually no punishment. I don't believe dogs deliberately ignore commands that have been properly taught and trained.

    The results from the two systems are just exactly what you'd expect; variable, with the most competent trainers producing the best results. Unlike some I don't see the two in competition with each other; were I to train for US Trials I'd use the collar because that's what you need to punish infractions of line at distance, but I'd still teach the basics with clicker because I know it works more quickly and with greater precision than anything else.

    Were you guys to train for our Field Trials you'd have to amend your training in several ways not all ofwhich are best addressed by a collar.

    As a final shot I'd like to propose a thought experiment to my “FF” chums in N America. Imagine you live in a country where the collar is unlawful, but there is a wealth of non FF knowledge that's growing every day. The raw material (ie the dogs) available is of high quality and well suited to your needs. Additionally you've had some bloody cruel luck with your dogs this season and need to have three Pups (and maybe even a trained dog as a gap filler) in the kennels PDQ. That's right where I am.

    What would you do?

    Eug
    1) Necessity is the mother of invention.
    2) Understanding the Principles of Learning is what's important.
    3) A good, clever trainer will be good and clever anywhere.
    4) To quote someone whom I respect: "Force fetching does not mean pinching the ear. Force fetching means making the dog do it when he doesn't want to. (Pressure)".
    5) There is more than one path to the final destination.
    "I love the rod and gun and where they take me."

    "Do not judge a man until you have walked two moons in his moccasins."

  4. #34
    Senior Member fishduck's Avatar
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    The short answer is that if a collar were illegal, trainers would either quit or train without.

    Fortunately, most here are not faced with that decision. There are many trainers in the US that do not use collars. I know of one HRCH/MH non collar trained. I have also trained with many others that did the job without FF or CC. They had nice dogs that can do the work. I trained my first dog without FF or a e-collar.

    For my purposes a collar makes the training simpler, with less confusion. Everyone I know that has tried both methods is now an e-collar convert. It is still true that if you can't train a dog without a collar, you can't train one with it.
    Mark Land

  5. #35
    Senior Member Gun_Dog2002's Avatar
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    I've never understood people's aversion to teaching a dog how to properly hold game or pick it up on command. I've never understood people's aversion to teaching a dog right and wrong. I've never understood teaching a dog that doing good gets praise and doing wrong results in unwanted consequences.

    /Paul
    Paul Cantrell
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    "Helping Hunters Train Their Dogs"

  6. #36
    Senior Member yellow machine's Avatar
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    [QUOTE=Gun_Dog2002;1041783]I've never understood people's aversion to teaching a dog how to properly hold game or pick it up on command. I've never understood people's aversion to teaching a dog right and wrong. I've never understood teaching a dog that doing good gets praise and doing wrong results in unwanted consequences.

    Exactly!
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