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So what would you do? FF v Non FF

7K views 35 replies 24 participants last post by  yellow machine 
#1 · (Edited)
This is a FF v Non FF question of a sort, but I hope a bit more reflective than some.

First I like to get some agreed definitions as to just what is being discussed, and by the way drop the US versus UK tabs, they don't really mean anything and only serve to irritate and annoy.

So OK lets define Force Fetch; not what it supposedly achieves, but what it actually is. Sequential, structured training? No, can't be that, structure isn't exclusive. Use of the e-collar? No, can't be that you can Force Fetch without it via ear pinch and so on. I submit that the use of the phrase is often pretty sloppy and includes in the assumed definition both structured training and the collar which is sort of fair enough, but often assumes the structural elements are exclusive.

So, by interpolation non FF training omits the collar and the ear pinch thing, and may or may not contain a fixed structure. Like many such, I have a structure very clearly in my mind but vary it's application, intensity and timing to suit the particular dog's needs. I rely on a lot of positive reinforcement, acute observation of the dog (as best as I can manage anyway, still a work in progress;)) and virtually no punishment. I don't believe dogs deliberately ignore commands that have been properly taught and trained.

The results from the two systems are just exactly what you'd expect; variable, with the most competent trainers producing the best results. Unlike some I don't see the two in competition with each other; were I to train for US Trials I'd use the collar because that's what you need to punish infractions of line at distance, but I'd still teach the basics with clicker because I know it works more quickly and with greater precision than anything else.

Were you guys to train for our Field Trials you'd have to amend your training in several ways not all ofwhich are best addressed by a collar.

As a final shot I'd like to propose a thought experiment to my “FF” chums in N America. Imagine you live in a country where the collar is unlawful, but there is a wealth of non FF knowledge that's growing every day. The raw material (ie the dogs) available is of high quality and well suited to your needs. Additionally you've had some bloody cruel luck with your dogs this season and need to have three Pups (and maybe even a trained dog as a gap filler) in the kennels PDQ. That's right where I am.

What would you do?

Eug
 
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#2 ·
Eug, I really respect you, consider you a thoughtfull gentelman and would love to watch you and your dogs run an English field trail, but I have no idea what your question is. I guess if I was in your shoes I would train dogs the way I have in the past and look around for way to tweak my training program and make it even better.

John
 
#3 ·
This is a FF v Non FF question of a sort, but I hope a bit more reflective than some.

So OK lets define Force Fetch; not what it supposedly achieves, but what it actually is. Sequential, structured training? No, can't be that, structure isn't exclusive. Use of the e-collar? No, can't be that you can Force Fetch without it via ear pinch and so on. I submit that the use of the phrase is often pretty sloppy and includes in the assumed definition both structured training and the collar which is sort of fair enough, but often assumes the structural elements are exclusive.
You're a good man, Eugene. Too good for a set up question like this. You've conditioned it so as to be like bad science. You know; the scientist sets out - not to discover new evidence, but rather simply to prove something he already believes. And he does it by so stacking the data that it can only prove him right. "Presto! I knew it all along!":D
So, by interpolation non FF training omits the collar and the ear pinch thing, and may or may not contain a fixed structure.

Eug
Why would a dog that was not being force fetched automatically 'omit the collar', even if ear pinch won't be used? You can do it, Eug. How about starting over and just ask the question that's really on your mind?

Evan
 
#4 ·
If you can't train a dog without a collar and ff you can't really train a dog with them. Training is far more than the tools you use.
 
#5 · (Edited)
John,

The question is if you don't have access to an ecollar, or at least lawfully, how would you train? Go back to the old US way with rat shot, cattle prods, and all the other horrors I read about, or get better at training than that nonsense. And I think you answered it very well!

As to your kindly expressed opinion of me, it's just a confirmation that you can fool all of the people some of the time!

Evan there's no intellectual gymnastics or naughtiness involved, I see it just as I expressed it. I don't see how a non FF program includes collar use, but your view differs. Quel horreur, we disagree!;)

Eug
 
#10 ·
John,

The question is if you don't have access to an ecollar, or at least lawfully, how would you train? Go back to the old US way with rat shot, cattle prods, and all the other horrors I read about, or get better at training than that nonsense. And I think you answered it very well!
Eug,

I'm not John, but I get your question. And if it were me, and I were to be placed in that spot, would still train dogs, but not compete. I no longer do anyway, but i would not go back to stock prods, shotgunning, bird shot, etc. I simply would not go back. Winning was fun, but no longer that important.
As to your kindly expressed opinion of me, it's just a confirmation that you can fool all of the people some of the time!
Well, you've got me fooled my friend. I'm convinced you're a good chap!
Evan there's no intellectual gymnastics or naughtiness involved, I see it just as I expressed it. I don't see how a non FF program includes collar use, but your view differs. Quel horreur, we disagree!;)

Eug
i don't know if this addresses your question, or not. But I, and many others here in the states e-collar condition to many more commands than just "Fetch". If I brought up a pup with no intent to FF, I would still e-collar condition him to all standard commands.

Evan
 
#6 · (Edited)
Buy six dogs, start training and pray a lot.

And Eug, I don't see using negative re-enforcement with e-collar or otherwise as a patch or short cut used by people who have no business calling themselves dog trainers. I further don't see training without -r as "getting better". Rather, I see the thoughtful, fair and humane application of both +r and -r as the real art of an accomplished trainer.

Handicapping oneself by omitting a valid re-enforcement strategy is paramount to playing football on one leg. It would be a hell of an accomplishment but more or less a novelty vs. a mainstream strategy.

It's just not going to work on the majority of dogs and I suspect that despite the e-collar being unlawful, there is plenty of +p and -r going around the UK in one form or another. I don't know that as a fact but I would bet it's there.
 
#7 ·
Train without the collar. Start as pups and teach hold, fetch and release the way Lori Jolly does it on her Etraining program. Lots of praise!:) No force!
 
#8 · (Edited)
As a final shot I'd like to propose a thought experiment to my “FF” chums in N America. Imagine you live in a country where the collar is unlawful, but there is a wealth of non FF knowledge that's growing every day. The raw material (ie the dogs) available is of high quality and well suited to your needs. Additionally you've had some bloody cruel luck with your dogs this season and need to have three Pups (and maybe even a trained dog as a gap filler) in the kennels PDQ. That's right where I am.

What would you do?

Eug
If I lived in a country where the collar was unlawful, I would make one myself, train my dog with it and let everyone think I did by following the law. May even try to make money on my unlawful approach. Wait a minute, maybe that's already happening?

Realistically though, the rate of wash out or culling of the dogs would be much greater in the scenario presented. Maybe that's why you make 3 pups available. It may take lots of pups from great bloodlines to find the one that will make it.

From what I see around here, almost everyone thinks their dog is the next AA Field Champion and even if they are not, there are a lot of great tools to help them to reach that goal without putting their pup out to pasture.
 
#9 ·
To answer the original Q: my guess is that half the dog world would be lost and probably would not know where to start....the good trainers would still be the good trainers because they would learn to re invent themselves and find ways to solve their problems...

and to answer Eug's assertion about going back to cattle prods,rat shot and similar tools...no current trainer worth his/her salt would use those unless they were absolute idiots and ready to face the wrath of the dog world..Luckily those tools went the same way as the archaic weapons of the Spanish Inquisition
 
#11 ·
Eug, if I was in your shoes needing a trained dog and 3 up and comers, I'd buy a good trained dog as soon as one was available, buy an up and comer started dog, and buy an 8 week old puppy from the best breeding I could find. After 6 months of training, I'd buy another puppy from the best breeding I could find.

It's been fun spending your money. :p

Also, I'd train the dogs the way I knew how to train as that is what I know is successful with me at the controls.
 
#12 · (Edited)
With-out a collar, I'd probably learn how to run pretty fast and swim, so I could get close enough that harsh words and scoldings made a difference. Wait I did that for a couple of years, can it be done? Yes and with the same results however, Not fun with a head strong testing bitch when she's 100-300 yards away. Thus for those who have no choice to use an e-collar an yet continue on with the more laborious training process you have my respect. For those who simply choose not to use a really nice tool, I consider you a little strange but to each there own ;).

On the dogs you need PDQ, I'd probably find a started dog I could at least work with first, and be actively searching and waiting for the correct breeding for the other 3, an e-collar can solve a lot of issues, but when you have to train manually better to have a very tractable pup to start, it can save the legs and head ;).
 
#13 ·
I would clicker train the basic obedience and force fetch on the table using the ear pinch. I believe that the clicker training helps build the correct relationship between the puppy and me and I believe the force fetch process helps build the correct relationship between us as he gets older.

Of course you can train a dog w/out ever doing force fetch. Like Eug, I also train & trial Springer Spaniels. Force fetch in the spaniel world is typically only used as a last resort to try to correct/mask a problem & yet most are extremely reliable retrievers.

It is my opinion however, that the process of restraining the dog and teaching him that he can’t avoid, escape or fight his way out of compliance is a very useful exercise.
 
#14 ·
It's practically an axiom of competitive obedience that there are many different ways to train the same exercise. Certainly, it's true for the several retrieve exercises in obedience.

Very few obedience trainers in the US use ecollars, and then usually only for a reliable recall outside of the ring. An ear pinch is common, but so is clicker training and training sans clicker but with treats and praise. In obedience, you see all breeds of dogs, few of them natural retrievers. Most of them can be persuaded to retrieve a wooden dumbbell and a glove without too much of a battle. The AKC Utility scent discrimination exercise requires retrieving a metal article. My golden girl will happily pick up crushed aluminum cans and bundles of keys (unasked). It's usually a tad more difficult (like a few orders of magnitude) to get an Afghan Hound or a Chow to pick up a metal object.

So, to answer your question (which I suspect is rhetorical, since I'm pretty sure you already have a plan in mind), I suppose I'd look at the many other techniques out there.
 
#19 ·
Force fetch in the spaniel world is typically only used as a last resort to try to correct/mask a problem & yet most are extremely reliable retrievers.
An interesting comment from Dave Flint.

It's often forgotten that Springers (and by default Cockers) were never bred to retrieve, for a zillion generations they hunted up and flushed game either for the net or a bird of prey. Only with the coming of the breech loading gun did their handlers see a need to retrieve. Some can be very sticky at first; I've remediated one via clicker and one with a particularly clumsy effort at FF. We got there in the end but it was a tribute to the dogs rather than the trainer! They seem to come into retrieving in a matter of time rather than anything else; I don't think I made a whole ruck of difference.

Eug
 
#20 ·
Know I'm not the sharpest knife in the drawer, but I'd ask myself a question..If you could Collar Train would ya' do it? Do you have to in the UK?

Think the only thing that might go beyond the capabilities of pushing a dog past a poison bird, err, crisper handling would be a good marking dog. And if I had to choose between the two,..-----> give me a good marking dog.

FF' and Collar training aint' gonna' put any "retrieving desires" in a dog. Think the breeding and the "molding" that takes place from the time a pup gets in your hands makes a HUGE difference in success later on in it's retrieving life. Don't get me wrong,.fully understand the attributes that FF brings to the table, but if it's unlawful to do it, I'd make Operant Conditioning my best friend.
 
#21 ·
Eug, have you done any research into Michael Elis's dog training videos? He uses a reward based method for teaching all sorts of dogs..
Steve S I wouldn't call it research, but I'm aware of his work and studied a lot of the videos.

Swampbilly
posted
fully understand the attributes that FF brings to the table, but if it's unlawful to do it, I'd make Operant Conditioning my best friend.
Don't forget that OC governs the use of the e-collar too, and every other training aid or method; but you're right, the more you learn about OC the better will be your powers of observation and analysis. However to answer your other question, even when I had the lawful opportunity to use an e collar I didn't take it. I was travelling a road from being an old time hard handed trainer towards something better and didn't perceive the collar as an advancement for me.

Eug
 
#22 ·
Don't forget that OC governs the use of the e-collar too, and every other training aid or method; but you're right, the more you learn about OC the better will be your powers of observation and analysis.
:cool:

However to answer your other question, even when I had the lawful opportunity to use an e collar I didn't take it. I was travelling a road from being an old time hard handed trainer towards something better and didn't perceive the collar as an advancement for me.

Eug
Nuthin' in the world wrong with that. If anything like some of us over here,..you may have more time than money .. :p

Do know this-
BonMallari and his brother has been successfully training, (collar-less), for some time now.
 
#29 ·
As a final shot I'd like to propose a thought experiment to my “FF” chums in N America. Imagine you live in a country where the collar is unlawful, but there is a wealth of non FF knowledge that's growing every day. The raw material (ie the dogs) available is of high quality and well suited to your needs. Additionally you've had some bloody cruel luck with your dogs this season and need to have three Pups (and maybe even a trained dog as a gap filler) in the kennels PDQ. That's right where I am.

What would you do?

Eug


Been mulling over this question in my mind and keep thinking it belongs on POTUS....;)
In your shoes Eug, there wouldn't be any reason to change the training program. For those of us who subscribe to the Carr-based system of force fetch (conditioned retrieve) and collar conditioning, we'd likely train as we've done before, just minus a few tools. Lots more rope, maybe a few of us (myself included) would get that knee surgery we need to be able to keep up with our dogs afield to administer timely corrections. Training without the ecollar and without the foundation of FF would probably take me a whole lot longer to get the results I wanted, but probably still faster than trying to learn an entirely different sequential method.

Being open minded to different training programs isn't the same as changing your mind that one is superior to another, no matter how you package your "what if" scenarios. What if I awoke in the UK and Obama was running for Prime Minister? Would I vote for him?
:cool:
 
#31 ·
The first pro that I worked for trained with little use of the collar. So I guess i would train like we did when I worked for him. He had a truck load of MH but with the way test are now days I am not sure how his dogs would do. I am thankful I worked for such a pro because it has allowed me to train many dogs that would be washed out. So I guess I see it both ways. Their are some very great trainers that have washed alot of nice dogs because they did not fit saids program. Adapt and train. Now if I lived in a Country that didn't allow me to train and use the collar I would be looking for a different place to hang my hat.
 
#32 · (Edited)
Now if I lived in a Country that didn't allow me to train and use the collar I would be looking for a different place to hang my hat.
Others might feel the same about countries that don't allow you to hunt with an eight bore, four bore, or punt gun, or impose arbitrary bag limits and enforce a lottery to shoot deer. Were we all to move hoping to avoid unwelcome legislation, there would be a rather odd looking sub-chapter of RTF bobbing about in Mid Atlantic! :D :D :D

Eug
 
#33 ·
1) Necessity is the mother of invention.
2) Understanding the Principles of Learning is what's important.
3) A good, clever trainer will be good and clever anywhere.
4) To quote someone whom I respect: "Force fetching does not mean pinching the ear. Force fetching means making the dog do it when he doesn't want to. (Pressure)".
5) There is more than one path to the final destination.
 
#34 ·
The short answer is that if a collar were illegal, trainers would either quit or train without.

Fortunately, most here are not faced with that decision. There are many trainers in the US that do not use collars. I know of one HRCH/MH non collar trained. I have also trained with many others that did the job without FF or CC. They had nice dogs that can do the work. I trained my first dog without FF or a e-collar.

For my purposes a collar makes the training simpler, with less confusion. Everyone I know that has tried both methods is now an e-collar convert. It is still true that if you can't train a dog without a collar, you can't train one with it.
 
#35 ·
I've never understood people's aversion to teaching a dog how to properly hold game or pick it up on command. I've never understood people's aversion to teaching a dog right and wrong. I've never understood teaching a dog that doing good gets praise and doing wrong results in unwanted consequences.

/Paul
 
#36 ·
I've never understood people's aversion to teaching a dog how to properly hold game or pick it up on command. I've never understood people's aversion to teaching a dog right and wrong. I've never understood teaching a dog that doing good gets praise and doing wrong results in unwanted consequences.

Exactly!
 
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