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Thread: Michigan........

  1. #131
    Senior Member Franco's Avatar
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    After 46 in the workforce, all I can say is I am glad that I have never had to belong to a union that set my pay or benefits. I have always been paid strickly on my productivity and negotiated my own benefits and that is they way I like it!
    It's time we abandon our party affiliations and rather than being good Dems or good Repubs we all become good Americans. MJH345

  2. #132
    Senior Member coachmo's Avatar
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    Hey murral, I am the boss!

  3. #133
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    Quote Originally Posted by coachmo View Post
    Hey murral, I am the boss!
    Salary or hourly? Do you own the company? Funny thing is, I am in management as well. I just have never forgotten where I came from and hold to my roots. I still make management decisions, but I do things fairly.

  4. #134
    Senior Member coachmo's Avatar
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    Salary. You make huge, broad assumptions about people. You have no idea about my roots or how I treat the employees that I work with.

  5. #135
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    Quote Originally Posted by coachmo View Post
    Salary. You make huge, broad assumptions about people. You have no idea about my roots or how I treat the employees that I work with.
    If you are salaried like me,you cannot belong to the union if you wanted to. You made it sound like you were hourly and didn't want to pay union dues, but you wanted to reap the benefits. I didn't mean it to sound like you didn't treat your people fairly. when I left the union ranks to move into management, I swore I would never forget what it was like to be on that line. I don't understand why people hate the unions so badly. I have worked with several managers over the years that have never been on the line to understand what it is like. they have been programmed in their college classes that the unions are evil and the people on the line are greedy if they want to have union representation. That's where the us against them mentality comes from. during negotiations, if the company would be honest about whether they are making money or not, the union would be more receptive to concessions to keep things going. In my industry, it was always said that we had to take concessions because the company was losing money. When in fact, they weren't losing money at all, they just weren't making as much as they wanted to make. Our negotiators asked on more than one occasion asked to see the financials to verify they were in the red. They wouldn't open the books, yet the ceo and high ups were reaping huge bonuses. I find it hard to believe that you pay someone a bonus, and keep them employed, if they are running your company and it is losing money.

  6. #136
    Senior Member Gerry Clinchy's Avatar
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    I really don't have any experience with unions, but trying to look at this objectively.

    It appears that once a company has a union, it always stays there. Does the union ever have to be subjected to a "confidence" vote? Like, every so many years, do the workers get to re-affirm that they want this union to represent them? For example, if a group of workers felt that the union was doing a poor job of representation; or if there was abuse of funds, etc., the workers might want a change ... either to another union or to no union.

    For a long time (I don't know if it is still so), there were no unions in Japan, but workers were treated well. There were rarely layoffs or job-changing. We now have companies like Toyota here in the US who do not have a union for workers.

    What I haven't seen in these discussions is any admission that unions can have flaws in the way they are managed ... just like companies can have flawed management.

    When talking of the fact that union wages are higher than non-union wages, that can also mean the products those companies produce will cost more than products made by non-union companies. Isn't that part of he problem with why jobs then go overseas ... because even though Americans might prefer to buy American-made products, they opt for foreign-made products due to price combined with quality. If the US-made product is superior, and the price is within reason v. the foreign-made product, it will still be competitive in the market.

    There is a market for higher quality goods. Toyota cars are competitive, even though often more expensive, due to their perceived durability. US-made cars lost their perceived quality over time. That's one example, and certainly not perfect, as more recently even Toyota has had quality-control issues it would appear.

    It is often cited that American workers are among the most productive workers in the world. I wouldn't dispute this. If we start there, then we might also assume they work hard to do a good job at what they do. Would it not follow that US products would then have a high quality? Is it the companies who manage the business who use methods that produce lower quality for their price point, and the workers simply do what they are told to do, even if it means producing an inferior product?

    I tend to think that smaller companies are more likely to use their workers' ingenuity in improving product quality or features. Large companies seem to have many layers between the worker and where the management decisions are made, and they lose the ability to tap into the workers' experience with the systems and materials. Can large unions similarly lose touch with their worker members?

    Locally, we have an Amazon distribution center. It made headlines in the local papers when workers were suffering through the summer in an incredibly hot building. There was public pressure for Amazon to improve its working conditions.

    I'd be interested in hearing the varied opinions on this.
    G.Clinchy@gmail.com
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    ​I don't use the PM feature, so just email me direct at the address shown above.

  7. #137
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gerry Clinchy View Post
    I really don't have any experience with unions, but trying to look at this objectively.

    It appears that once a company has a union, it always stays there. Does the union ever have to be subjected to a "confidence" vote? Like, every so many years, do the workers get to re-affirm that they want this union to represent them? For example, if a group of workers felt that the union was doing a poor job of representation; or if there was abuse of funds, etc., the workers might want a change ... either to another union or to no union.

    For a long time (I don't know if it is still so), there were no unions in Japan, but workers were treated well. There were rarely layoffs or job-changing. We now have companies like Toyota here in the US who do not have a union for workers.

    What I haven't seen in these discussions is any admission that unions can have flaws in the way they are managed ... just like companies can have flawed management.

    When talking of the fact that union wages are higher than non-union wages, that can also mean the products those companies produce will cost more than products made by non-union companies. Isn't that part of he problem with why jobs then go overseas ... because even though Americans might prefer to buy American-made products, they opt for foreign-made products due to price combined with quality. If the US-made product is superior, and the price is within reason v. the foreign-made product, it will still be competitive in the market.

    There is a market for higher quality goods. Toyota cars are competitive, even though often more expensive, due to their perceived durability. US-made cars lost their perceived quality over time. That's one example, and certainly not perfect, as more recently even Toyota has had quality-control issues it would appear.

    It is often cited that American workers are among the most productive workers in the world. I wouldn't dispute this. If we start there, then we might also assume they work hard to do a good job at what they do. Would it not follow that US products would then have a high quality? Is it the companies who manage the business who use methods that produce lower quality for their price point, and the workers simply do what they are told to do, even if it means producing an inferior product?

    I tend to think that smaller companies are more likely to use their workers' ingenuity in improving product quality or features. Large companies seem to have many layers between the worker and where the management decisions are made, and they lose the ability to tap into the workers' experience with the systems and materials. Can large unions similarly lose touch with their worker members?

    Locally, we have an Amazon distribution center. It made headlines in the local papers when workers were suffering through the summer in an incredibly hot building. There was public pressure for Amazon to improve its working conditions.

    I'd be interested in hearing the varied opinions on this.
    If the workers decide they no longer want the union to represent them, they can move to de-certify the union. that is a secret ballot vote. If the majority says out, the union is gone, or if the majority says in, they stay.

  8. #138
    Senior Member helencalif's Avatar
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    Franco,

    I just noticed your avatar... the famous photo of Y.A. Tittle.
    Helen

  9. #139
    Senior Member Franco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by helencalif View Post
    Franco,

    I just noticed your avatar... the famous photo of Y.A. Tittle.
    Helen
    Yes it is.

    "A photo of a dazed Tittle in the endzone taken by Morris Berman of the Pittsburgh Post-Gazette on September 20, 1964, is regarded among the most iconic images in the history of sports. Tittle, who was in the final season of his career, was photographed helmet-less, bloodied and kneeling immediately after having been knocked to the ground by John Baker of the Pittsburgh Steelers and throwing an interception that was returned for a touchdown at the old Pitt Stadium. The quarterback suffered both a concussion and cracked sternum on the play.+

    His record of 7 TD passes in a single game is still a record today and he held the record for most TD passes in a season for over 20 years until broken by Dan Marino. Probably the greatest QB to ever come out of LSU.
    It's time we abandon our party affiliations and rather than being good Dems or good Repubs we all become good Americans. MJH345

  10. #140
    Senior Member coachmo's Avatar
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    Murral, there you go again making assumptions. I never once said how I was paid prior to my last post and salaried employees can join a union (in specific fields) if they are inclined too.
    Last edited by coachmo; 12-12-2012 at 09:28 AM.

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